Diablo® III

Monster melee attack range

Posts: 181
This is bad enough on it's on, but then it's compunded by how large the hitboxes are in this game. Your character is considered about as large as a Grotesque for hit range purposes. You don't have to walk your character up to a monster to be in melee range, you just have to walk about a yard or two of empty air up to them and they can instantly strike this empty space of air and damage you before their animations are even done playing. If they're going to use DoTA style attributes in this game, then they should also implement DoTa like features. DoTA style games have the hitboxes around a character drawn as a circle on the ground under them. They should make a little circle on the ground under your character so you know what your true hit box (and the enemies hit box) is, since the visual indications we do have (the character models) are deceptive.
Posts: 1,142
The real question I'm wondering is... do our attacks work the same way? If I attack with a melee power, is the chance to hit calculated when I start the swing as well? And what about pbaoes?
Posts: 1,056
04/12/2012 08:43 AMPosted by D3BETA
If I die even once in HC due to a distanced melee attack you can guarantee I'll be spitting curses at Blizzard for their shoddy game programming. And I doubt I'll be alone. Don't take skill away from players unless you wish to drive them away.


I'm fairly certain anyone in this thread knows by now the solution to countering this - cancel the mobs animation with an ability. You may not agree with the change - and that's fine - but ignoring the counters because of disagreement puts you in a position that deserves to be punished. Manage your resources and abilities and you won't die.
Posts: 673
In other news, all kiting spells do more damage than straight damage spells. See Ray of Frost.

Now if there was a price to pay for kiting enemies, then there would be a challenge. As it is, all ranged classes can kite without problems, and do the same damage as if they were standing still. All melee classes got 30% damage reduction because, well, being melee makes you tougher, don't you know?

On the other hand, melee classes no longer have any way of avoiding taking damage. Fortunately, your weapons (even fists) have huge range compared to the skeletons. Instead of walking up to them, hold shift and right click. You'll see the skeletons dying a good 10 Diablo yards away from where you're swinging.
Posts: 120
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.

Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. :) It's not something we'll be changing.
This is probably the stupidest response I have ever read .... essentially "We wouldn't want our game to make sense" or "we wouldn't want an actual correlation between the visual game experience and the mechanics"

Pathetic. If you don't want people being able to run through groups of monsters, make the monsters faster, or add more ranged, or add more monsters, but making huge hit boxes and ranges that have no correlation to the visual reach of the monster is just idiocy.


This. I am honestly surprised that for a marquee game in 2012 with years of development it is acceptable to have such a jarring disconnect between visual animation / feedback and consequences. And it isn't just for zombies -- I have experienced this with Grotesques and other slow-windup mobs. I do agree that a mechanic is needed to avoid having a player just run through mobs, but there are quite a few other options to explore, including faster swings, slowing the player down with mob collision-detection, etc. Just a very disappointing response, overall.

Sure, it doesn't matter much in beta with mobs that barely do damage, but in hell and inferno (especially in HC mode), this will sting quite a bit more, and the somewhat unpredictable nature of whether you were hit or not will make health / potion / heal management a bit more random, as the effect is quite delayed in these cases.
No, I am providing reasons why the mechanic is in place (like Bashiok already has) and yet the endless stream of QQ still rages on. I'm still waiting to hear a compelling argument why this is such a bad decision beyond break in visual continuity. I believe the community is simply not used to a mechanic like this and are trying to make it seem like a greater issue than it is.


PS ..... "I'm still waiting to hear a compelling argument why this is such a bad decision beyond break in visual continuity"

We don't NEED another argument. That one WINS on its own.

There should ALWAYS be visual continuity. And if they can't create this, its a failure of their game design. Period.
No, I am providing reasons why the mechanic is in place (like Bashiok already has) and yet the endless stream of QQ still rages on. I'm still waiting to hear a compelling argument why this is such a bad decision beyond break in visual continuity. I believe the community is simply not used to a mechanic like this and are trying to make it seem like a greater issue than it is.


No you are saying that if people don't agree with you they are ignorant. I understand what they said, and why they say the system is the way it is, and it's stupid.

Like I said, you want heroes who run into groups of monsters to get hit, increase the attack speed animation. There is NO correlation between the animation and the combat if I can get 'hit' where a monster can not reach me. Why not shoot an arrow left and hit a guy to your right if thats they way the want the system ?

"To prevent everyone from juking out of damage, you will take damage regardless as is fair" (From you) This is Laughable. So ok, I run in and hit someone faster than they can hit me, and run out, .... its 'fair' that I take damage ? Explain why thats fair, please ?

That makes no sense, if a mage is casting from across the room and someone shoots a range attack at them and they dodge it ... should they still take damage ? because thats 'fair' ???


There are several reasons why boosting the attack speeds of monsters, to appease the lack of visualization you are complaining over, would be a foolish mistake.

1. It would create a messy, visually unpleasing atmosphere. You basically just bent yourself over and ended your own argument right here. (since you know, you are only complaining about the visuals being out of whack.)To be able to catch ranged or a caster these numbers would have to be boosted horrendously to catch them.

2. This would create a (further) rift between challenge and ease of play in which ranged would come out the victor 9 times out of 10 in that their inherent kiting abilities are already strong, removing the ability of an auto attack to go through simply because they danced out of range is more humorous than anything because they simply would never get hurt. Melee as well, could kite in this fashion, although they are at the mercy of these increased mobs attack speed (or numbers, if that is what you please to compensate for this mechanic.) since they actually need to get in close to utilize their attacks and skills.

How is that either balanced or fair for melee?

3. Ranged can kite far easier than melee, and a little bit easier than casters. Hence why their projectiles can be dodged. In this instance, applying the mechanic here would be foolish, as is trying to shoe-horn it into your argument for your argument's sake. Melee works differently than ranged and ranged works differently than melee as casters work differently than both of them. Applying the same rules to all would be, uh, pretty stupid, since they all have different advantages/ disadvantages, wouldn't you say?
No, I am providing reasons why the mechanic is in place (like Bashiok already has) and yet the endless stream of QQ still rages on. I'm still waiting to hear a compelling argument why this is such a bad decision beyond break in visual continuity. I believe the community is simply not used to a mechanic like this and are trying to make it seem like a greater issue than it is.


PS ..... "I'm still waiting to hear a compelling argument why this is such a bad decision beyond break in visual continuity"

We don't NEED another argument. That one WINS on its own.

There should ALWAYS be visual continuity. And if they can't create this, its a failure of their game design. Period.


Hilarious. The forums ate my response so I had to rewrite it. Not only did I counter all of your arguments I provided reasons against every specific thing you suggested showing you why your argument is invalid. Foot in mouth please, do it. Your argument is weak and frankly, I still maintain that you are ignorant to anything that has to do with design or balance.
Edited by D3BETA on 4/12/2012 9:46 AM PDT
Posts: 1,061
The real issue is this: The hitboxes are too large. People are going to die and it's going to be hardcore and they're going to be "WTF how could I possibly have died I was nowhere near him".
04/12/2012 08:43 AMPosted by D3BETA
This mechanic is a direct consequence of allowing the player character to run - infinitely.


If people want to run around in all of Sanctuary then let them. If they want to bypass monsters then that's their prerogative. Don't know about you guys, but I play Diablo to decimate monsters and reap the rewards from doing so. I don't care much for rushing through this game, and if I did I'd just end up getting slaughtered by the next boss I encounter which can't be circumvented through running.

There will be times when I'm bashing the crap out of monsters and I get brought to near-death. When that happens, I'd like to take comfort in knowing I could retreat and live to fight another die...instead of retreating and hoping they don't punch me to death from 4 yards away.

Seasoned players will learn to anticipate this and start to retreat when their health isn't as low, knowing they can still get hit when outside melee range. But they're still going to retreat. So why not make the melee attacks more pronounced?

I doubt I'll ever use my barb to rush in, get a few hits, back off while they all swing and miss, run in, strike a few more times, back off, and constantly dance back and forth. Instead I'll be leaping into the fray and bashing them relentlessly until either they all die or my health gets dangerously low forcing a retreat.

If I die even once in HC due to a distanced melee attack you can guarantee I'll be spitting curses at Blizzard for their shoddy game programming. And I doubt I'll be alone. Don't take skill away from players unless you wish to drive them away.


You have countered yourself in your very post. If you are 'punched to death' from four feet away, it is because you foolishly stayed in the mobs range to allow them more hits on you. Being brought to <25% health and -then- waiting to retreat is a mistake you can only blame yourself for. When you were talking about how seasoned players could account for that, well, duh. That is where the challenge comes from and how you countered yourself before you were even done writing your post.

There is no invisible punch hitting you from across the screen, very simply you will only get hit by the animations that have already begun on you, hence anything that happens is a consequence of your own doing for being in range in the first place. I am looking forward to seeing all the rage from unskilled HC players, especially when they blame this mechanic on their deaths. I don't think I'll ever be more amused in my life.
04/12/2012 09:53 AMPosted by D3BETA
This mechanic is a direct consequence of allowing the player character to run - infinitely.


No, you're wrong. This is not an intended mechanic, they just label it as such. This is a result for their choice for the way the server online infrastructure works.

But even if it is intended (it's not, but let's say that it is) it's a bad mechanic and it's not a result of the fact that your character can run constantly. In Diablo2 after certain level i never ran out of stamina. There was a hit lag, but not to such a degree, in fact it's curious that in a game from the year 2000 there is less hit lag than in a lot more modern game.


-_-

I can't take you seriously, sorry.
Posts: 134
I am guessing you are all new.. This system is used in every main stream game. No one is out to get you, believe it or not blizzard likes to make money and making a fun experience is the best way to do that. If you could melee kite it would completely change the game to make it something pretty lame. The animations on monster attacks are for flavor, i find it ironic that if there was no animations everyone would just say monsters attack really fast and not complain. Because we see that wind up and you are gone by release, you think you should not have been hit. So many complaints about what you all think is the best way to play. Sometimes the community is rite, alot of the time they are children trying to explain to a parent why vegetables are bad for them.
04/12/2012 10:01 AMPosted by Naivety
I am guessing you are all new.. This system is used in every main stream game. No one is out to get you, believe it or not blizzard likes to make money and making a fun experience is the best way to do that. If you could melee kite it would completely change the game to make it something pretty lame. The animations on monster attacks are for flavor, i find it ironic that if there was no animations everyone would just say monsters attack really fast and not complain. Because we see that wind up and you are gone by release, you think you should not have been hit. So many complaints about what you all think is the best way to play. Sometimes the community is rite, alot of the time they are children trying to explain to a parent why vegetables are bad for them.


Yes, thank you so much. No one understands what they see and what is actually happening are two different things and that is how most modern games work. Not to mention in this specific instance there are balance implications to why it is the way it is. Altering it even slightly would make the game stacked in one kind of heroes favor and gimp the others. This is honestly a perfect medium between all of the characters while keeping the game interesting, fun, and challenging.
Posts: 445
I'm not understanding why a lot of people are upset. This mechanic has been around forever and makes sense and is necessary. Get over it.
Posts: 3,290
04/12/2012 09:53 AMPosted by D3BETA
This mechanic is a direct consequence of allowing the player character to run - infinitely.


No, you're wrong. This is not an intended mechanic, they just label it as such. This is a result for their choice for the way the server online infrastructure works.

But even if it is intended (it's not, but let's say that it is) it's a bad mechanic and it's not a result of the fact that your character can run constantly. In Diablo2 after certain level i never ran out of stamina. There was a hit lag, but not to such a degree, in fact it's curious that in a game from the year 2000 there is less hit lag than in a lot more modern game.


You missed the point -- there is NO DEFENSIVE PENALTY (I know of) to running in D3. Stamina drain was meant to limit running in D2, but it was never fully developed or balanced. HOWEVER, there were disadvantages to running in D2. It would set your defense value to zero and reduce your block chance to 1/3 (usually 75% --> 25%). So, running away from attacks did involve considerable risk. This is why you would use skills like whirlwind or leap attack to retreat with a barbarian. Or charge away with a paladin.

Guess what this sounds like? Like D3! Use an ability to get away to remain safe.

Defense in D2 made monsters miss your outright. It did not mitigate damage taken. Defense in D3 is dodge %. Armor provides damage mitigation. If anything, this system for D3 is more forgiving than the D2 system when all things are considered. You still can get away safely like you could in D2. And if you do decide to run away, you still have full mitigation on those hits (to my knowledge).
04/12/2012 10:31 AMPosted by D3BETA
I can't take you seriously, sorry.


And how can someone ever take you seriously after the fact that you are defending a broken mechanic, almost as if you are a damage control.
The fact remains, visual continuity is essential part of every game, the current hit lag is absolutely atrocious.


Complaining about this, after it has been proven to be an intended mechanic, makes you look like a retard.

04/12/2012 10:36 AMPosted by D3BETA
I'm not understanding why a lot of people are upset. This mechanic has been around forever and makes sense and is necessary. Get over it.


Only in the previous games monsters didn't hit you from half a screen away, the hit lag was a lot less. The current implementation of this mechanic is absolutely horrible.


You don't understand, I get it. The whole thing is lost on you.
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If this really pisses you off so much, don't buy the game.
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