Diablo® III

Monster melee attack range

Honestly, people compare apples to oranges when they are trying to make a inherently bias judgement.To take a big Ogre/Boss fight example: If a boss is reeling back for a big swing, chances are, you can most likely move out of his path/swing and not take damage. That is true with every rpg/mmo/arpg thats been made. Now if he does a mass pull that pulls all players to him and does a quick cleave, you'll end up taking the hit yes because that was intended and for you realistic fans out there, his arm length will be longer than you can run away within that second.(Truthfully you can duck in real life...but yeah, game world and no ducking feature)

Bash's statement is this: If there is a line of zombie or other type of mobs but there is a small hole in that line, say enough to "physically" fit your body through it, and close enough that you could feel/smell its breath(for you visual people) and you run through it, you will get hit obviously. The hit already register because you dedicated to move through that hole and came in contact with it. If you choose to get into melee or if you were forced by getting pinchered/overwhelm/pulled then you deserved to get hit and have to scrambled to get out. You can't expect to roll out in that situation can you?

Also, melee range isn't clearly defined in real life or in game worlds. There is no way to define the reach of an attack. You can jump/hop back from an armless man and avoid damage, but what about if he has arms, has a dagger, or a bastard sword. What about if its a spear, a lance, pike or a halberd/Glaive. Can you do a simple hop back and avoid getting skewered by a thrusting pike, what about if its its a full swing? These are all typical melee attacks and weapons but they all have different length and thus different reach correct? From a couple of centimeter/inches from the armless man to 20 or so feet(roughly 5 meters) of pikes and such. Whose to say that these "hellish" creature who are three, four times or even more your size can't hit you.

Personally, I've never been hit unless I'm in or was in melee range of packs of mobs. Even so, as I was running away, I would take and notice the damage as soon as I was roughly 1-2 character steps away which is roughly realistic. I've never seen hits register if I'm half a screen away and didnt touch the group and as I stated, when I do enter melee that split second, the hits would have already register as soon as I'm 1-2 steps away.


http://imgur.com/J5L3y
http://imgur.com/4UcaS
http://imgur.com/r7jMZ
http://imgur.com/6dPzS
3 Human Rogue
0
Posts: 47
04/11/2012 04:52 PMPosted by D3BETA
I'm still waiting for anybody out there to dispute the points I have made.


You ran into range, the mob began it's attack. You ran out before that attack had the chance to reach you, yet you are still hit because of an artificial code mandate. What you saw on screen is not what happened "in game". It's ironic, because it's a direct result of trying to sync animation with combat resolution i.e. create WYSIWYG, and has resulted in the exact opposite of this.

There were and are better ways of dealing with the problem. Why not have some mobs with fast short range attacks triggered when players get within range that become effectively "undodgeable" except via stats/abilities? This not only matches onscreen action with combat resolution, but adds gameplay. Now you have to be aware what sort of mob you are dealing with, and it adds gameplay diversity. Win/win.

A generic, artificial solution like the one currently imposed breaks the inherent visual contract of the action gameplay.


Honestly that would dull up the game if they attempted to match both the animation and the hit being registered at the same time. In order to satisfy the system, you would have to make every melee hit and swings into a blur motion, akin to movies and games where the hit is faster than the eye can see and the body can react, or to a ingame example, sort of like the Monk's Deadly Reach after-effect. It would be much easier for the designers as well because all they would have to do is make a blur/fuzzy motion for everything instead of attempt to put details into it. It would balance the eternal struggle between melee vs range because the range couldnt complain about dodging the attack and the melee cant complain about the range glitching them out just by taking a step back.

Practical yes, but it would be too boring for every melee animation to just be blurred
It's a sensible mechanic, certainly. The attacks are triggered once the player is within range, and applied once the animation finishes. It would be unfair if the players could shuffle in and out of close range to avoid all damage. And going by just the video from the original post, skill dodges are very much present. Observe the hand attacks of the Grotesque, and how they can be avoided just fine. In addition, the original gameplay video (and Blizzcon 2010 B-roll) shows that the Dark Berzerkers have a wind-up melee attack that's meant to be dodged.


also keep in mind that its counter productive to have swings undodgeable, and expect players to learn that oh, im supposed to dodge that swing

anyone that knows that melee swings arent dodgeable are likely to never even try to dodge these slow, meant to dodge swings, until told so

counter-intuitive

You can't avoid every melee attack, the same way you can't avoid every ranged attack. Armor and Defense is still important. It's still unknown if there is a maximum range to the melee attacks that can be exceeded with enough +speed bonuses. We'll find out in the main game.


its known, look at my screenshots

http://imgur.com/J5L3y
http://imgur.com/4UcaS
http://imgur.com/r7jMZ
http://imgur.com/6dPzS
Edited by D3BETA on 4/11/2012 5:11 PM PDT
This discussion should've been settled by the second page... Mercules and Nectavius' explanations were more than enough to grasp why it is the way it is. Get in melee range, get hit. Big freaking deal. So much QQ over this?
Posts: 78
So why isnt the "hit" being sent to your character at the same time it lands like would make sense. I know bash said they dont want you running in and out to avoid attacks, but when will that ever be very practical? In the video it was 1 slow zombie and it was easy, but in game there are going to be multiple zombies, and they are not all swinging in sync. If you are ducking in and out to avoid attacks from multiple monsters you are going to be hard pressed to find time to kill them all off. It is also punishing the time when this would be practical like against large monsters or when you have low health and start running. You start retreating and as you leave 3 swings start that kill you 10 feet away.
You ran into range, the mob began it's attack. You ran out before that attack had the chance to reach you, yet you are still hit because of an artificial code mandate. What you saw on screen is not what happened "in game". It's ironic, because it's a direct result of trying to sync animation with combat resolution i.e. create WYSIWYG, and has resulted in the exact opposite of this.

There were and are better ways of dealing with the problem. Why not have some mobs with fast short range attacks triggered when players get within range that become effectively "undodgeable" except via stats/abilities? This not only matches onscreen action with combat resolution, but adds gameplay. Now you have to be aware what sort of mob you are dealing with, and it adds gameplay diversity. Win/win.

A generic, artificial solution like the one currently imposed breaks the inherent visual contract of the action gameplay.


Honestly that would dull up the game if they attempted to match both the animation and the hit being registered at the same time. In order to satisfy the system, you would have to make every melee hit and swings into a blur motion, akin to movies and games where the hit is faster than the eye can see and the body can react, or to a ingame example, sort of like the Monk's Deadly Reach after-effect. It would be much easier for the designers as well because all they would have to do is make a blur/fuzzy motion for everything instead of attempt to put details into it. It would balance the eternal struggle between melee vs range because the range couldnt complain about dodging the attack and the melee cant complain about the range glitching them out just by taking a step back.

Practical yes, but it would be too boring for every melee animation to just be blurred


many games within the same ganre are already doing this (look at torchlight 2 and path of exile)

and others outside of the genre like guild wars 2

these games now have an appeal over diablo 3 for higher skilled players

(this is ignoring making every attack too fast to react to / blurred)
Edited by D3BETA on 4/11/2012 5:13 PM PDT
04/11/2012 05:10 PMPosted by D3BETA
This discussion should've been settled by the second page... Mercules and Nectavius' explanations were more than enough to grasp why it is the way it is. Get in melee range, get hit. Big freaking deal. So much QQ over this?


many people are attracted to games like this for the exact opposite philosophy in play
Posts: 1,062
04/11/2012 01:09 PMPosted by D3BETA
LOL remind me of Warcraft III...move archer into range of grunt, move well out of range by the time the axe falls...it whiffs...*SPLAT* gg archer


LOL I've been on both sides of that
04/11/2012 05:10 PMPosted by RoyMadman
So why isnt the "hit" being sent to your character at the same time it lands like would make sense. I know bash said they dont want you running in and out to avoid attacks, but when will that ever be very practical? In the video it was 1 slow zombie and it was easy, but in game there are going to be multiple zombies, and they are not all swinging in sync. If you are ducking in and out to avoid attacks from multiple monsters you are going to be hard pressed to find time to kill them all off. It is also punishing the time when this would be practical like against large monsters or when you have low health and start running. You start retreating and as you leave 3 swings start that kill you 10 feet away.


this is a point i think the devs overlooked entirely
04/11/2012 04:52 PMPosted by D3BETA
I'm still waiting for anybody out there to dispute the points I have made.


You ran into range, the mob began it's attack. You ran out before that attack had the chance to reach you, yet you are still hit because of an artificial code mandate. What you saw on screen is not what happened "in game". It's ironic, because it's a direct result of trying to sync animation with combat resolution i.e. create WYSIWYG, and has resulted in the exact opposite of this.

There were and are better ways of dealing with the problem. Why not have some mobs with fast short range attacks triggered when players get within range that become effectively "undodgeable" except via stats/abilities? This not only matches onscreen action with combat resolution, but adds gameplay. Now you have to be aware what sort of mob you are dealing with, and it adds gameplay diversity. Win/win.

A generic, artificial solution like the one currently imposed breaks the inherent visual contract of the action gameplay.


Sure, that would work for a game like Dark Souls which is a different game entirely than Diablo. In that game you had to think about what type of enemy you are going against and is very action-oriented in that movement and position played a big part of surviving. There is a disconnect between the attack and what you see on the screen but it is one that makes sense based on gameplay mechanics which excuses the discrepancy.

In fact many games have disconnects between what you see and what actually is happening. It is nothing new to gaming. Bash already stated the reason why this was and I agree with it completely because it would be far too easy to run from mobs based on the completion of their attack animations alone. Ranged would have even more effective kiting abilities were this true and would take far less damage which would make for a stale and unchallenging game.

You still have to think about your position with this mechanic, how much damage you can take from the creature, being careful not to get swarmed, etc, etc. The only difference is you can not dance and juke out of damage based on movements alone.
Posts: 825
04/11/2012 05:10 PMPosted by D3BETA
Get in melee range, get hit. Big freaking deal. So much QQ over this?


Because it's SO odd that the first instinct is to think it's lag or interp. I can't think of any other game like this where it's actually designed to feel warpy on purpose. Certainly not previous Diablo games.

So D3 has bad hit detection for both targeting and receiving damage -- by design!
04/11/2012 05:10 PMPosted by RoyMadman
So why isnt the "hit" being sent to your character at the same time it lands like would make sense. I know bash said they dont want you running in and out to avoid attacks, but when will that ever be very practical? In the video it was 1 slow zombie and it was easy, but in game there are going to be multiple zombies, and they are not all swinging in sync. If you are ducking in and out to avoid attacks from multiple monsters you are going to be hard pressed to find time to kill them all off. It is also punishing the time when this would be practical like against large monsters or when you have low health and start running. You start retreating and as you leave 3 swings start that kill you 10 feet away.


Because they are attempting, as much as possible, to sync animation with combat resolution. This results in animation driving combat timings, and this code fudge is the result of trying to find a solution for one of the problems this creates. As I explained in an earlier post, it's ironic because they are breaking the visual contract of action gameplay as a direct result of trying to enforce it!
04/11/2012 05:14 PMPosted by Shyster
LOL remind me of Warcraft III...move archer into range of grunt, move well out of range by the time the axe falls...it whiffs...*SPLAT* gg archer


LOL I've been on both sides of that


and its stupid both ways, its not as important in an rts game, however, but im still waiting for the day when there is one that works the right way
Get in melee range, get hit. Big freaking deal. So much QQ over this?


Because it's SO odd that the first instinct is to think it's lag or interp. I can't think of any other game like this where it's actually designed to feel warpy on purpose. Certainly not previous Diablo games.

So D3 has bad hit detection for both targeting and receiving damage -- by design!


diablo 2 did to some extent, but if you were a certain range away, it would miss instead, in diablo 3, you can be however far away you want and it wont matter. im very frustrated at the lack of insight the devs are showing on the subject

http://imgur.com/J5L3y
http://imgur.com/4UcaS
http://imgur.com/r7jMZ
http://imgur.com/6dPzS
Edited by D3BETA on 4/11/2012 5:54 PM PDT

Honestly that would dull up the game if they attempted to match both the animation and the hit being registered at the same time. In order to satisfy the system, you would have to make every melee hit and swings into a blur motion, akin to movies and games where the hit is faster than the eye can see and the body can react, or to a ingame example, sort of like the Monk's Deadly Reach after-effect. It would be much easier for the designers as well because all they would have to do is make a blur/fuzzy motion for everything instead of attempt to put details into it. It would balance the eternal struggle between melee vs range because the range couldnt complain about dodging the attack and the melee cant complain about the range glitching them out just by taking a step back.

Practical yes, but it would be too boring for every melee animation to just be blurred

Actually there is a way to fix this but they would have had to plan it out much earlier. IE if it takes 5 seconds for a full zombie attack. Instead of the current enter range start animation then deal damage if any 5 seconds later.
They could have it have a 4 second charge/arm/whatever animation plus a 1 second actual time to get hit/avoid the attack.
But in reality the current system only matters against small groups of slow enemies.
Get in melee range, get hit. Big freaking deal. So much QQ over this?


Because it's SO odd that the first instinct is to think it's lag or interp. I can't think of any other game like this where it's actually designed to feel warpy on purpose. Certainly not previous Diablo games.

So D3 has bad hit detection for both targeting and receiving damage -- by design!


Play Dota2. It is a fair is fair mechanic in that if an attack animation begins on you or you start one on another enemy champion while being in range the attack will go through. And why shouldn't it? The range criteria was met and there are only the consequences left at that point.

Vs a game of LoL where your attack can be glitched out by moving backwards. You only perceive it as bad hit detection because you do not understand the concept that past a certain point the damage is already done.
Edited by D3BETA on 4/11/2012 5:28 PM PDT
3 Human Rogue
0
Posts: 47

Honestly that would dull up the game if they attempted to match both the animation and the hit being registered at the same time. In order to satisfy the system, you would have to make every melee hit and swings into a blur motion, akin to movies and games where the hit is faster than the eye can see and the body can react, or to a ingame example, sort of like the Monk's Deadly Reach after-effect. It would be much easier for the designers as well because all they would have to do is make a blur/fuzzy motion for everything instead of attempt to put details into it. It would balance the eternal struggle between melee vs range because the range couldnt complain about dodging the attack and the melee cant complain about the range glitching them out just by taking a step back.

Practical yes, but it would be too boring for every melee animation to just be blurred

Actually there is a way to fix this but they would have had to plan it out much earlier. IE if it takes 5 seconds for a full zombie attack. Instead of the current enter range start animation then deal damage if any 5 seconds later.
They could have it have a 4 second charge/arm/whatever animation plus a 1 second actual time to get hit/avoid the attack.
But in reality the current system only matters against small groups of slow enemies.


Wouldnt that system have a weird animation and cause people to not be able to time dodge-able hits correctly? If I'm understanding what you are saying, the animation would start before the player actually enters any range. Going from your example and lets say 5 feet is the melee hit: The attack animation would start 4 seconds ahead of the actual strike, say when you are 10 feet away and when you get to 5feet, the attack actually lands?(Assuming it takes 4 seconds to get to the mob) Unless I'm misunderstanding wouldnt that cause more confusion and alot more arm waving? Would cause players to not know when they are actually getting attack from simple idle/chasing you animation.

As for you Honor, I can see from the Screenshots that you are getting hit from alot further away than me but for me, the damage shows up right as I step away. Could be a server side thing. My friend complains to me that she is stuck as soon as a hulk knocks her back but on my screen, she is already knocked back and isnt actually stuck.

many people are attracted to games like this for the exact opposite philosophy in play


My experience with ARPG's, albeit fairly limited, has me comfortable with this mechanic. If we're going to be able to dodge attacks like the OP (and others here) want, I say program the monsters to time their attacks based on our movement. Then what? Why give the player such a boring and easy advantage? It would be boring to dodge auto attacks from every enemy in this type of game. I promise.

04/11/2012 05:27 PMPosted by D3BETA


Because it's SO odd that the first instinct is to think it's lag or interp. I can't think of any other game like this where it's actually designed to feel warpy on purpose. Certainly not previous Diablo games.

So D3 has bad hit detection for both targeting and receiving damage -- by design!


Play Dota2. It is a fair is fair mechanic in that if an attack animation begins on you or you start one on another enemy champion while being in range the attack will go through. And why shouldn't it? The range criteria was met and there are only the consequences left at that point.

Vs a game of LoL where your attack can be glitched out by moving backwards. You only perceive it as bad hit detection because you do not understand the concept that past a certain point the damage is already done.

+1
Edited by D3BETA on 4/11/2012 5:39 PM PDT
It's intentional. We don't want a game where the most effective way to play is to dodge in and out of enemy attacks. It's not that difficult to do, and it's just not a very fun way to play. "Most effective" and "not fun" just can't be in the same sentence when describing part of the game. We want combat to be based on use of abilities, putting thought into builds, building up offensive and defensive stats, etc. Skill is absolutely a part of all of the systems you'll use, and kiting can be too, but it'd be ridiculous if you could avoid all of the systems that make the game the game because you can time dodges of enemy attacks and negate every other factor.

Also think about just running past enemies to rush through an area and never being hit. Anyone looking to rush would love it! Which is why it's not a good idea from a design perspective. :) It's not something we'll be changing.


Good response, but you have that game already, its name is WoW. Yes this is trolling.
Ok, question: I get why monsters shall hit me when they attack me while in range, but I don't get they should get a ranged attack. When I run past, OK let them hit me, but don't let them hit me when I run past and got past. There are some monsters that differentiate here, like the unburried, I like it, and you stated it already, they are supposed to be big and clunky thus evading is kind of good gameplay here, because it's just a part of the game not all melee monsters work this way. It's fun because it's exceptional.

SO all in all good job and again honestly, good response, puts it in a nutshell realy well.
Edited by D3BETA on 4/11/2012 5:43 PM PDT
04/11/2012 05:35 PMPosted by Stellina
As for you Honor, I can see from the Screenshots that you are getting hit from alot further away than me but for me, the damage shows up right as I step away. Could be a server side thing. My friend complains to me that she is stuck as soon as a hulk knocks her back but on my screen, she is already knocked back and isnt actually stuck.


my latency isnt bad, (notice its green) it was just i was testing this very thing with those screenshots. i was running in range and instantly running out to see how far away i could get with an attack done, and if the attack would still hit, which it did

and i recall testing this at around 70 latency
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