Diablo® III

Are mantras really that good?

Posts: 214
I always hearing ppl saying monk can continuously fight and stands longer while other classes like barb can only kite or run away due to lack of debuff and healing. Everybody says mantras are great, its true if your in a big party, but not when you plan to solo:

monk mantra of evasion: 15% dodge chance, 20% armor with rune
mantra of conviction: 24% dmg with rune
and these two mantra CAN'T stack

barb wrath of berserker:10% crit chance, 25% attack speed, 20% dodge chance, 20% moving speed, with rune either 60% dodge chance or 100% dmg.
although berserker has cooldown, its benefits in crit chance and moving speed makes it up, and for many cases 15 sec is enough for an intense fight. If I have a choice, I'd prefer this skill on my monk other than stack of above two mantras.

now maybe most useful mantra of monk: mantra of healing +310 life per sec
barb war cry: +20% armor, the most ridiculous part is its rune effect: +310 life per sec and 10% max life!!! and its a fury generator last 60 sec with only 30 sec cooldown, means it'll alawys be active, and it's better than a mantra since everyone only needs to be close while barb shouts, afterwards you are free to go far away from barb but still have the effect. This is just sick, who needs monk then?

One last thing, monk's armor sets look just most ugly among all, while barb's armor sets have at least top 3 sets among all classes.

I really want to play monk as my starting class, but why is it so inferior comparing to others?
Edited by HolyRedbull on 4/12/2012 1:39 PM PDT
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Posts: 1,198
04/12/2012 01:38 PMPosted by HolyRedbull
I really want to play monk as my starting class, but why is it so inferior comparing to others?


You only think hes inferor. Monks pretty deceptive that way, all without saying a word.

Wrath of the beserker is indeed a cooldown, which makes it impossible to compare with a mantra. Barb shouts are fairly good but they lack in what they can do. Also mantra of evasion is better then warcry for damage reduction. With 10000 base armor, war cry (hardened wrath) grants 23% multiplicative damage reduction. At this same number mantra of evasion (hard target) increases overall damage reduction by 26%, with an active to increase it to 37% for 3 seconds. Now I realize this does not account for the healing rune on warcry, but as it is not burst healing it probably isn't all that great.

Now the monk lacks offensive cooldowns, but has plenty of defensive cooldowns. He can heal the group once every 15 seconds for a substanial ammount. He can give the whole group invulnerability for 2 seconds out of 20. Multiple mantras from different monks can stack for great bonuses to the group. In situations where the burst from mantras is nessisary, they can increase the effect to up the damage bonus on conviction (overawe) to 48%, giving the group burst damage.
Edited by AscendedOne on 4/12/2012 2:23 PM PDT
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Posts: 230
100% Agree , Love the monk theme so much but I am really drawn to barb for power gaming reasons.
War cry owns MoH.
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Posts: 98
You can throw a passive in that makes all your manras heal you for 2500 when activated.

Also, pally bubble.
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Unless they changed it in the last couple patches, different mantras do stack but exact mantras do not.
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04/15/2012 02:25 PMPosted by D3BETA
Unless they changed it in the last couple patches, different mantras do stack but exact mantras do not.

it has always been, you can only have 1 mantra up at a time.. if you pop a 2nd mantra, the first is cancled out.. making it pointless to have a 2 mantra build.
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85 Human Warlock
2750
Posts: 702
04/15/2012 03:13 PMPosted by D3BETA
Unless they changed it in the last couple patches, different mantras do stack but exact mantras do not.

it has always been, you can only have 1 mantra up at a time.. if you pop a 2nd mantra, the first is cancled out.. making it pointless to have a 2 mantra build.


He's talking about 2 of the same mantra stacking from 2 different monks.
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ahhhhhhhhhhh
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Posts: 547
Glyphed Mantra of Conviction provides +24% dmg per person in a 4 man group. This means that a monk in a group (any group) contributes the most in terms of DPS. It's really hard to say anything negative about a class that can do that. I'm going to be the devil's advokate here and say that a Monk does 50% of the DPS of any other class. Below the monk will be represented as 100 DPS with every other teammate being represented by a minimum of 2x the monks DPS.

Base DPS Without Mantra of Conviction
200 DPS
200 DPS
200 DPS
100 DPS Monk
700 DPS Total

DPS With Mantra of Conviction
248 DPS
248 DPS
248 DPS
124 DPS Monk
868 Total DPS

Difference in total DPS with and without Mantra of Conviction
868 - 700 = 168

Total Monk Contribution
168 + 100 = 268

Percent Contribution
268 / 868 = 0.308 or 30.8% of the overall group DPS.

So yea.... even if the monk does 50% the DPS of the rest of the group they can provide the most overall DPS contribution with just Mantra of Conviction.

Keep in mind, the monk can also drop enemy DPS by -45% to everything around them as well as provide even more DPS buffs with +16% DPS from passive every time you heal for 15 seconds, +10% damage to enemies the monk hits with glyphed crippling wave.

Just a couple things to consider... If you want to build your char to solo and bang your chest then you might not want to play a monk, but if you want to be a team player and have a really strong group then a monk isn't a bad choice.
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Snc, while you provide excellent math for the benefit of the mantras.. You just ruined it with that idiotic last statement of yours to think Monks can't solo efficiently.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Mantra of Conviction|Submission synergy with Resolve. Passive 25% damage reduction to everything in a 20 yard range forever**? Yes please.

(** - I am assuming, of course, that keeping up a 3 minute mantra is trivial.)
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I tried playing a barbarian and they were awfull, i had to run away from the 4 pillar skeleton room whill my monk just plowed through it losing almost no damage, you forgot about the monks ability to infinetly teleport all over the room, heal itself, have a permenant pet and go immune to damage the things the barb does not have and will never have collectively

Also why did you compare un runed mantra of healing to runed barbarian shout? The runed mantra of healing has 310 healing AND 20% less damage from ALL sources not simply just 20% more armor which could equate to about 5% more resistance, and you can activate rune mantra of healing to be 1200 healing every second for 3 seconds that is MASSIVE

Also i would not like to have to run next to the barb every 30 seconds to hope i get his buff, with the monks mantra i simply be on the same screen as the monk and get the heal, why exactly would i be off in some other area anyways when grouped up, are you one of those terribadies who goes off and soloers in hell mode when you are suppose to stick together?

There's just no doubt mantras are better, easier to use and more user friendly, not to mention the survivability of the monk is simply far better, they are an easier class to solo with and better for group play than the barb, barb is better when grouped with a monk at damage but thats all
Edited by D3BETA on 4/15/2012 10:39 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Posts: 1,842
A barbs buffing shouts were a hugely useful thing in D2. I realize I gripe about monks having problems, but this is one thing I don't have a problem with... awesome class buffs.

Every class should have buffs that contribute to the entire party. The barbs' shouts are their contribution. When playing with my friends, we have a pretty good balance of different classes. These buffs may look pretty awesome by themselves, but imagine how sweet they'll be stacked.

Every class should have something that counts as a long duration, desirable buff. It doesn't necessarily have to give healing or damage reduction like these do. They should be buffs that are appropriate to the class giving them. Also, there really should be more options in general for this kind of thing for other classes - monks are, if anything, overstacked with group buffs and healing. Monks definitely need more(and BETTER) damage powers, but not more buffs/utility.
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Mantras last for 3 mins. Cost only 50 Spirit. Pretty useful in my opinion. You can keep it up continuously if you plan for it.
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Posts: 1,198
04/15/2012 07:30 PMPosted by snc
I'm going to be the devil's advokate here and say that a Monk does 50% of the DPS of any other class.


I would not under any condition assume that. Every class in diablo is DPS, not tanks, healers or support. Anything that fulfills one of those roles in the classes is just a bonus on top of their role as damage. I'd say melee classes in general have things that make up for their short range, such as the 30% extra damage reduction. You may even assume that monks and barbs deal more damage then the 3 ranged clases.
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04/16/2012 11:59 AMPosted by DeMasked
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Mantra of Conviction|Submission synergy with Resolve. Passive 25% damage reduction to everything in a 20 yard range forever**? Yes please.


Glad you pointed this out lol. Definately something to consider when making a build with Conviction :)

This might be fun as mostly a party buffing monk :)

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WYXgRk!ZXV!ZbZaYc

Used the Hand of Ytar (or whatever it is) just for fun lol.


I like that build; but i've opted for something that is full time buffing/debuffing.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WbXdfk!Zdc!Zcbbac

I think it looks good on paper (assuming my monk is dual wielding); but i'm not sure how effective it'll be in practice.

Also want to try:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WcijXQ!Zcd!ZYabYc
Edited by D3BETA on 4/16/2012 10:44 PM PDT
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Posts: 88

So yea.... even if the monk does 50% the DPS of the rest of the group they can provide the most overall DPS contribution with just Mantra of Conviction. .


You're assuming that all enemies will be within 20y of the monk when taking damage, which is not true. 20y is a very small range. You're also assuming that no other classes have debuffs/buffs that increase party DPS output.

Of course, I also think your 50% dps projection is too small ;)
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