Diablo® III

Spiders are a bit awkward to use.

90 Goblin Shaman
0
Posts: 790
The best possible weapon for DoT-heavy build may well be a 2-h.

However, Mojos add +Damage (and can have other damage stats like Int) so a mojo can make up for the lower weapon damage on a 1h. This means that for most 2h it's possible to get a ih/mojo combination that makes your DoTs do the same damage.


Completely untrue. A Knife/Mojo combo results it not only lower max damage numbers, but the combo also has a wider minimum to maximum damage range which hurts DPS.

Some Comparisons:

Veil Piercer, 1-Handed Ceremonial Knife is showing a damage range of 288-294 on a perfect weapon.
The equal tier Kurastian Asp, a Mojo, boosts damage by 29-405.
Combined they offer a 317-699 damage range.

The Sovereign Staff, an equal tier 2-handed Staff, shows a damage range of 685-701.

Not only does the staff have a higher damage potential by 2 points than the Knife-Mojo combo, but the minimum damage is 368 points of damage higher, meaning WAY better DPS for DoTs.
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#Spoiler - Bad English
Hello/

@Obliquatur
I think its too early to talk about end game items, but as you mentioned same tier 2h vs 1h+ofh you didnt say that 2h stave got 6 random bonuses and dagger + mojo have like 12... i dont know if the power of bonus is scaled with 2h (two times more +int then on 1h weapon for e.g.).

@on topic
Spiders vs poison dart. Well.... spiders are more universal - its both aoe and single target dmg that happens to be dealt by little spiders, on group of mobs it can do alot of dmg with snare (or dogs that will tank the group of mobs) and on solo enemies they do great too because all the spiders are attacking one target so you can consider it as dynamic aoe/single target spell, but you dont have control of what to kill first.
As for poison dart is more tactical spell to kill the most dangerous enemies like elites or summoners, used with fear can allow you to pick whatever you want weakening the group to the point that one aoe can finish the minions.

In my opinion both are good but lets say on higher difficulty ill rather go for poison dart for more control of the fight. but what do i know... :D
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The best possible weapon for DoT-heavy build may well be a 2-h.

However, Mojos add +Damage (and can have other damage stats like Int) so a mojo can make up for the lower weapon damage on a 1h. This means that for most 2h it's possible to get a ih/mojo combination that makes your DoTs do the same damage.


Completely untrue. A Knife/Mojo combo results it not only lower max damage numbers, but the combo also has a wider minimum to maximum damage range which hurts DPS.


What I said was: "for most 2h it's possible to get a 1h/mojo combination that makes your DoTs do the same damage." I didn't say "possible to get a 1h/mojo combination within the same BS tier that does the same damage" which is what you seem to be reading into what I said.

Comparisons of hypothetical perfect weapons are helpful to work out what to aim for in the longer term - for any build either 2h or 1h/mojo will be better if you could choose any possible weapon.

In practice, most players will be choosing between a collection of items that have dropped, and items that the BS can craft - and what's affordable on the AH. That means you're choosing between a jumble of items with random stats, which may well be of different tier/item level (or whatever the proper d3 term is.) Even within a tier of BS items, stat differences can make a significant difference. Sometimes the best damage will come from a 2h, and sometimes 1h/mojo.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
2805
Posts: 27
I think they should make spiders a summon and get rid of the ridiculous pot throwing attack. Where the heck is the doctor getting infinite pots from?? Thin Air?? It's just silly. Also, how does holding a weapon, like a sword or whatever, increase dart damage?? Shouldn't there be a dart weapon that drops in the game that only doctors can use? Like the demon hunter's crossbows, or the wizards off hand orbs? Wouldn't that make more sense?? Seeing her hold a sword, but continue using her blow dart gun is quite a laugh. This makes the doc my least fave char so far.
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Have you actually played the WD and thrown those things?
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87 Dwarf Priest
11245
Posts: 1,163
04/19/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Sunfire
I think they should make spiders a summon and get rid of the ridiculous pot throwing attack. Where the heck is the doctor getting infinite pots from?? Thin Air?? It's just silly. Also, how does holding a weapon, like a sword or whatever, increase dart damage?? Shouldn't there be a dart weapon that drops in the game that only doctors can use? Like the demon hunter's crossbows, or the wizards off hand orbs? Wouldn't that make more sense?? Seeing her hold a sword, but continue using her blow dart gun is quite a laugh. This makes the doc my least fave char so far.


Hey Isaac, do you just spam this in every thread?
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90 Goblin Shaman
0
Posts: 790
6 random bonuses and dagger + mojo have like 12


It is actually hard to say because you are right, it is too early to tell most of this stuff. However, I will just point out that the level 26 magic Staff is already showing the potential for 5 random enchantments while Knives and Mojos are not seeing that amount until the 60s; and even then, we'd have to consider how many of those random enchantments can even impact DPS.

What I said was: "for most 2h it's possible to get a 1h/mojo combination that makes your DoTs do the same damage." I didn't say "possible to get a 1h/mojo combination within the same BS tier that does the same damage" which is what you seem to be reading into what I said.


You said:

This means that for most 2h it's possible to get a ih/mojo combination that makes your DoTs do the same damage.


See how I bolded "most" there. It is untrue. "Most" Knife/Mojo combos of equal tier will not equal the same damage that a 2-handed weapon offers for DoTs. It has nothing to do with "hypothetical perfect weapons" that you are mentioning. In fact, "hypothetical perfect weapons" are the only Knife/Mojo combination that I can see, based off the information we have the game so far, that could beat a 2-handed weapon in damage for DoTs.
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85 Undead Mage
12375
Posts: 405
Spiders are awesome. Throw on leaping spiders and you're getting 152 damage for 5 mana. They won't choose a particular target, but spamming them will coat your enemies in tiny bites.

I think the 2 handed plan is a flawed one. Let's take a simple example. Your staff-armed Witch Doctor is equipped with a level 5 staff doing 13.5 damage per second, attacking once per second. My dagger armed witch doctor does 11.2 damage per second, three times per 2 seconds. So you're doing more damage. That all stops mattering when I equip a +2 damage wanga doll, increasing my DPS by 3. Result: I'm doing 14.2 damage per second, and any secondary effects my spells may have will occur 50% more frequently.

And that completely disregards the benefits of any affixes you might have on your offhand: More int, more crit, etc.


Yup, but you cast faster which result in a bad mana efficiency. Of course it doesn't really affect Spiders... This is for Firebats and other High mana spells.
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Posts: 1,834
04/20/2012 11:31 AMPosted by Cmagik
Yup, but you cast faster which result in a bad mana efficiency. Of course it doesn't really affect Spiders... This is for Firebats and other High mana spells.


That's a very good point. But if it's a choice between casting 25% faster or getting 10% more damage, I'll take the faster casting. Plus, one of the common affixes for Mojos is faster mana regeneration, which just might make the mana efficiency argument irrelevant.

Really, until the game launches and you're actually comparing your itemization choices, this whole discussion is largely conjecture.
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04/20/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Obliquatur
What I said was: "for most 2h it's possible to get a 1h/mojo combination that makes your DoTs do the same damage." I didn't say "possible to get a 1h/mojo combination within the same BS tier that does the same damage" which is what you seem to be reading into what I said.


You said:

This means that for most 2h it's possible to get a ih/mojo combination that makes your DoTs do the same damage.


See how I bolded "most" there. It is untrue. "Most" Knife/Mojo combos of equal tier will not equal the same damage that a 2-handed weapon offers for DoTs. It has nothing to do with "hypothetical perfect weapons" that you are mentioning. In fact, "hypothetical perfect weapons" are the only Knife/Mojo combination that I can see, based off the information we have the game so far, that could beat a 2-handed weapon in damage for DoTs.


I've never said that knife/mojo combinations of equal tier can equal the same damage of a 2h within the same tier. You might have to jump up a tier to find a 1h/oh combination which equals the damage of any given 2h. My statement is correct unless you read "of the same tier" into it, which I have been clear is not what I meant.

The point is that, in practice, we'll have a jumble of gear from different tiers to choose from, with random attributes. This means that sometimes the correct weapon selection, from the actual weapons available to a player, will be a 1h/oh setup. Blanket statements along the lines of "2h is always best" or "1h/oh is always best" are unhelpful.
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87 Undead Mage
9835
Posts: 15
While I love the concept behind 'Corpse Spiders', it definitely feels like it's missing something at the moment, mainly because it's so ineffective against close targets. While it has a nice synergy with the snare of 'Grasp of the Dead', the fact that both abilities are DoT spells with no real direct damage component leaves the WD vulnerable to being ganked.

'Corpse Spiders' would feel better if the jars moved quicker through the air, especially against targets at close range. Against targets in melee range the travel time should be little more than instantaneous. I'd also like to see some impact damage when the jars shatter, although not so much that it becomes an AoE nuke. Impact damage combined with a decreased travel time against close targets would help fix things somewhat.
Edited by Flooded#1726 on 4/21/2012 3:02 AM PDT
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I've been in the beta for longer than most. To date, I've never thought corpse spiders was a good ability, even with runes. I reserve final judgement until I get to test every rune, but as it stands, I hate the ability.

Poison Dart/Splinters seems better in every single scenario than Corpse Spiders/Leaping Spiders. Unruned, corpse spiders does 16% and you summon 4 of them. If you're lucky, each spider will get 2 attacks off before dying. That's 128% Wdamage, and that's only if you're lucky enough for each spider to get 2 attacks off. Usually only 2 of the 4 spiders get 2 attacks, the remaining only ever seem to manage a single attack.

Poison dart on the other hand does 100% upfront damage + another 40% over a couple of seconds. Right out of the gate you're getting more overall damage than Corpse spiders at it's maximum potential. It's also a lot more reliable. You're guaranteed your damage everytime you hit with Poison Dart. With the spiders, most spiders turn into idiots. Some spiders will chase a moving target and die even before they get a single attack. It's ridiculous.

Runed is not any better. Spiders damage up to 19% and will leap (once) to a nearby target. If all 4 spiders get 2 attacks, you're looking at 152% Wdamage. However, like regular spiders, they turn into idiots. It's more reliable to get that first attack every time now, but they'll still chase moving targets and often times you won't get more than 1 attack, 2 at most.

Splinters on the other hand does a max of 180% Wdamage at 60% per dart. Again, more than spiders. They're easier to aim and generally a better source of damage as a whole.

Against single targets, against groups, against bosses, against elites and champions, spiders suck. Stick with Poison Darts or wait until new runes/abilities become available.
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Posts: 17
Repeatedly Throwing a HUGE POT that breaks and releases spiders is not only an annoying sight and sound, but also makes no sense. The WD has an unlimited supply of giant clay pots that he can pull out of thin air? I went into the beta excited to play the WD, but came away from it perturbed. The spiders are awkward and annoying. I switched back to splintered darts, and then I switched classes.

*CLAY POT SHATTERING*
*CLAY POT SHATTERING*
*CLAY POT SHATTERING*
*CLAY POT SHATTERING*
*CLAY POT SHATTERING*
*CLAY POT SHATTERING*
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85 Gnome Death Knight
9510
Posts: 1,355
I'm all about pets, but I had to use the blowgun because this spell is just to annouying.

The giant vase and the sound it makes just gets on my nerves. I'm hoping that adding runes removes the jar and the sound.
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90 Troll Shaman
11980
Posts: 185
I've been in the beta for longer than most. To date, I've never thought corpse spiders was a good ability, even with runes. I reserve final judgement until I get to test every rune, but as it stands, I hate the ability.


Rest omitted for space

You can throw spiders over things. You can't shoot darts over things.
Edited by Clarste#1210 on 4/22/2012 3:14 AM PDT
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85 Goblin Shaman
5440
Posts: 261
You also can't shoot darts through targets or other tricky situations like jammed doorways or room full of enemies. I'm a big fan of spiders since the range is excellent. Poison dart even with splinters was very annoying to me personally, the damage was alright but if monsters moved at all you had the possibility of missing at further than short range. Whereas with spiders you just toss them down and they will attack whatever is near. Spiders do well in aoe and single target situations.

I hope they don't change spiders, I much prefer them over poison dart/toad spell.
Edited by Greenstripe#1909 on 4/22/2012 4:23 AM PDT
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Posts: 953
04/19/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Sunfire
I think they should make spiders a summon and get rid of the ridiculous pot throwing attack. Where the heck is the doctor getting infinite pots from?? Thin Air?? It's just silly. Also, how does holding a weapon, like a sword or whatever, increase dart damage?? Shouldn't there be a dart weapon that drops in the game that only doctors can use? Like the demon hunter's crossbows, or the wizards off hand orbs? Wouldn't that make more sense?? Seeing her hold a sword, but continue using her blow dart gun is quite a laugh. This makes the doc my least fave char so far.


To me, the silliest thing is your arbitrary limit on suspension of disbelief. It's always amusing to read posts like this one. Keep spamming them, stay classy.
Edited by tangmcgame#1802 on 4/22/2012 6:57 AM PDT
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