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Could easily substitute Vault for Smoke Screen and be just fine.
Other than that, most builds will probably be pretty much along the lines of what you said except there are still some viable and even good builds outside of that cookie cutter formula.
Really? Forget about health globes, completely throw them out and assume inferno wont have any, people that believe in the worth of Vengeance are not thinking about globes. They are thinking about all the passives/actives that replenish discipline. What does discipline have to do with Vengeance?
You said Night stalker and Multishot are synergistic with Vengeance and I was kind of miffed as to how that came about. If you go back and read your post it is actually kind of confusing what you meant. For example, your number one said "Are there +max hatred items" and then the next sentence said "this will increase the value of Vengeance." You didn't specify what the "this" is and it sounded an awful lot like the max hatred items were what you meant by this when it doesn't make sense how they would help Vengeance.
Going back to the discipline part. They don't really interact in any way except for actually decreasing the need for Vengeance so what do you mean by synergistic spells?
Also, my problem with Vengeance is that you find/pick-up most of the health globes after you are done killing large mobs. So you clean up the place and then run around to grab health and also get some hatred, so what? Hatred regenerates fast as it is and its not like it won't be full by late fight (especially late game with +hps affixes, high APS, and abilities like companion). The only time you need the hatred/disc from health globes is mid-fight and you really don't get very many / have a chance to pick them up in the middle of fights very often. Even a boss fight like SK who summons a lot of minions I rarely ever got health globes and I couldn't justify using an entire passive just to get a couple extra hatred out of them. When you get into harder difficulties and it actually takes a few shots to kill monsters and you aren't spam killing masses of mobs of at once, you're going to see the number of health globes decrease dramatically even if they have the same drop rate.
Edited by Threllen#1475 on 4/24/2012 3:58 PM PDT
This is a great thread - I feel like I've got a great number of ideas from it.
I think this build follows the rules well - it's combines solid hatred generation with a snare that synergizes with the Cull the Weak passive. Further - many runes add to that.
Hatred regen is supplemented with the Bat Companion, while life regen is supplemented by the Cluster Arrow and Shadow Power runes.
I am so stoked for this game - it's not even funny.
Now...male or female DH...
Edited by Hurarao#1293 on 4/24/2012 10:36 PM PDT
I decided to try my hand at a build and this is what I came up with following the guidelines:
How did I do?
Dunno if this was mentioned somewhere in the blocks of text so... Although PvP won't be released at launch... You should experiment with all skills with their runes beforehand, don't simply follow your "build" as you level up.
Mentioning this because actually seeing the skills in effect, ie. hitbox width, speed of projectile, effective range, will help you decide on tweaking your build for PvP or even PvE:Inferno. Theory crafting is great to a point, but nothing beats first hand knowledge.
The sustained Hatred vs burst Hatred also ties into how well you control your skill shots. If you miss a burst and have to wait 30 seconds to reuse... eh, fail. Consider having weaker Hatred spenders which you can spam because you can always be juked. And the juking part is where knowing the speed of projectiles/range and timing those skill shots comes into play.
tl:dr - don't build builds based on dmg% numbers, that's for barbarians.. cuz they are barbaric and only know damage and more damage. =P
Okay, I had a high crit build worked out before this thread:
Grenades - Stun
Regular stuns keep enemies back and help provide space.
Impale - Grevious Wounds
+100% Crit Damage for a single target high damage ability.
Caltrops - Bait the Trap
Firstly can boost crit chances, but the slow effect can still be used defensively when retreating from mobs.
Marked for Death - Contagion
Theory behind this is that it can be used to boost damage against single targets, but also works for AOE thanks to Contagion.
Spike Trap - Sticky Trap
Synergises with an MfD kill for AOE. Basically chaining down enemies one by one.
Cluster Arrow - Maelstrom
Further boosting AOE.
Sharpshooter (The build is all about crits)
I suspected I might have problems with hatred regen, but with only 2 relatively cheap Disc skills, I would not have many issues there. Mostly I was under the assumption that boosting crit chance + crit damage would allow me to get away with cutting down enemies one by one. I think if I was truly trying to do that I'd ditch any attempt to get AOE and just try to boost the hell out of hatred regen and single target attacks.
I scrapped and started again build based on the principles raised in this thread and came up with this:
Grenades - Cluster Bomb
Going for more AOE on the generator, rather than stun.
Marked for Death - Mortal Enemy
Bonus damage + Hatred Gen
Cluster Arrow - Loaded for Bear
Still going for the big hits on single targets, but focused on damage rather than crits.
Multishot - Suppression Fire
Fills out AOE, with suppression fire for Disc gain.
Vault - Tumble
Playing keep-away to keep Steady Aim going.
Preparation - Punishment
I didn't know about the synergy with Multishot until this thread, actually. I felt like Multishot would give me a ton of Disc, but I didn't know where to spend it all.
What is your primary purpose for Marked for Death? The damage bonus or to gain Hatred? If its for damage bonus on unique monsters/bosses I guess you can use it. But if its for Hatred regen you might as well get Bat Companion. It will be available way early on in the game in terms of levels.
Same goes for Grenadier passive. Hatred bonus? or Hatred reduction on Cluster? If it were me, I would not be using this along with Cluster Arrow because you have a good AoE skill already. Also no need because if you are using Cluster Arrow for single target DPS, you may as well use Elemental Arrow - Lightning Bolts or Impale - Grievous Wounds/Impact/Chemical Burn. The stunning effects for obvious reasons if your intended target is a singled out high HP creature. Also since you are based around Criticals, the Grievous Wounds and Lightning Bolts runes are proc on crits.
If the above seems agreeable, replace Grenadier with Vengeance or Sharpshooter. Vengeance will benefit more from Preparation allowing you to spam 3 consecutive Multishot instead of 2, which is doing obvious things to your DPS and Discipline generating. This also leaves your Hatred generator as.. pointless in such a build. Look into Bola Shot - Bitter Pill for more chances of faster Discipline regen for more spamming Multishot. Yay.
Yeah, I realize this is changing 40% of your build, but it does still revolve around your main purpose of a Critical AoE build. I can't explain Sharpshooters usefulness if used with a Multishot build because I don't know whether a crit happens to all shots or some, and how that effects the reset by 1 second on Sharpshooter passive.
Also cannot comment on Caltrops - Bait the Trap. Unsure exactly what standing in area of effect would mean, whether I can simply stand in it as placed on ground or if it has to be set off to gain the effect. If it effects you while it is simply placed on the ground, can you stack the traps to gain the effect multiple times? Too much uncertainty to add this to a PvE Crit AoE build yet, but would most likely replace Companion
Welcome to my current PvE theory craft build. =P
Edited by Atlas5#1662 on 4/25/2012 5:38 AM PDT
First up, I should clarify the original build was crit based. The second one I threw crits out the window as a focus. But if you want to talk crit builds, I agree with most of what you say.
I assumed Bait the Trap doesn't require triggering to take effect. If it did, I'd have to either ditch it, or Steady Aim. I doubt it would stack.
Sharpshooter is mostly for near guaranteed single hit crits with impale.
The core concept was to open with Bait the Trap -> MfD -> Sticky Trap -> Impale.
Trap for plus crit, MfD for +damage & Contagion to spread the effect, Sticky Trap for a nice AOE burst assuming Impale kills, which it hopefully would with the combined effects of 100% bonus to crit + MfD's boost.
I agree that grenadier, grenade & cluster arrow, while a natural fit with one another, are not good for this, so I agree with ditching them. That leaves my hatred generator choice free.
If I stick with MfD, Sticky Trap, Impale and ditch Bait the Trap, I have 2 slots left + a generator, which is enough for Prep-Punish + Multishot.
However, that means my only disc skills are actually MfD and Prep-Punish, and Multishot is my only Disc gain. Throw in Bolas with Bitter Pill and I have another of those.
One key thing is that this has almost no evasive abilities. No stuns, no slows, no acrobatics. Either you have the DPS to take everything down or you're toast.
While I think the bat companion is a nice ability, it only grants 3 hatred per second. Of course that's in and out of combat. However, MfD combined with the Mortal Enemy rune provides 3 hatred per attack, which even as early as the beta content we were attacking more than once per second. I'm not sure how many attacks per second will be possible in the latter game, but I'd say it will be significant.
To me the increased hatred regen plus the increase in damage done seems more attractive. Yeah it only works when attacking, but that seems to be when hatred regen is really important considering you can just fire into blank air to recharge in between combat. I guess where the bat could really be better is dependent on how much moving and not attacking will actually be taking place in any given fight.
Chances are the ability has some sort of ICD so that you won't be getting 3 hatred every attack if you attack too quickly. Still more useful than the pet because it buffs your damage and gives you hatred. You have to keep refreshing it though so it's a pain for killing lots of enemies whereas the pet will always just be there and it will regen hatred for you even when you're not attacking.
... Until you actually play them. You can be sure that many skills will not work the way you expected, that much was clear even from 13 levels of playing in beta. That's why I've pretty much avoided planning builds, what looks good now ... and don't even get me started about Inferno! (I chuckle when I see people posting Inferno builds ... Did you even consider what if any physical/magical immunities mobs will have, for starters?)
I would not be too surprised if the Devs are also playing up Inferno mode to be harder than it actually is. After watching Dev/in-house game testing done on multiple games, I have lost all faith that any developer is on par to the hardcore gamers who learn the ins and outs of a game to the point of exploiting. And Inferno was made for people like this.. I just can't take the devs word for it. If Inferno is only 3 times as hard as Hell, its laughable. If its 10-20 times harder, it'll just be like running an end game raid in an mmorpg.
Also about Inferno builds.. why does it matter? If you have a Barb/Monk on the team, they are agroing 90% of the monsters and maybe 10% of the stragglers on the side of the monster group might agro you. 1 escape(vault or SS) should be enough, or your placement and timing was way off and needs work.
About Marked for Death, we all seem to be assuming that 'you' are the only one attacking this target, but clearly you won't be. This is obviously a group skill for those High HP single targets (assume we are playing through normal/nightmare/hell). Because of this it can be a double edged sword. The damage bonus is an amazing buff.. but if cast on unique minions, they will most likely drop before you get 3-4 shots in because the melees should start working on them before you do. And it is just a waste of discipline to even bother casting it on a regular minion if you kill him in 1 or 2 shots.
Remember my point of view is coming from a build that can, in theory, spam Multishot non-stop given there are enough minions to farm discipline off of. There will be no need for a MfD to be placed. However if the theory of infinite hatred/discipline combo works better than we expect, might not even need another Hatred generator. So Marked for Death can be used for another role and replace the Bat Companion
-_- sounds confusing after a read, too lazy to edit to make more sense. lol
Edited by Atlas5#1662 on 4/25/2012 1:50 PM PDT
I too am looking at a build that can support consecutively firing Multishot. At the moment I've got a few key things that are obviously in the build until I can try them out, ie. Multishot(Supression Fire), Preparation(Punishment) with a few others that can be swapped around. I haven't decided whole heartedly on a generator yet, though I'm leaning towards Hunger Arrow just for the nice single target dps. Bola Shot(Bitter Pill) seems great,but I really hate the delay in the damage.
What I'm getting at though is that things like MfD may make it into my build as I have one slot for utility that I'm kicking around a few options in, but I'd probably slot it for some kind of group support (Death Toll) instead of something that just benefits me (Mortal Enemy). I could even see going with the Sentry runed with healing or shield if the ability proves worth while after some field testing.
In the end I guess it's just about what you're trying to accomplish. I'll be trying to find a nice balance between strong continuous dps and some form of group support via increased damage for the party, supplemental healing or simply crowd control. I just can't wait to get to end game and start testing some of this stuff out!
@Gerulfman: you have good AoE and I like Elemental- Screaming skull for defense, but you don't seem to have a single target ability. Since you are pretty defense heavy you may consider dropping vault, caltrops, or ele arrow in favor of a single target skill, and possibly bola for hungering.
Re: bat companion vs m4d mortal enemy- Using a slow weapon, bat definitely wins out as far as hate generation. Equal hate gen without having to cast. Using a fast wep, m4d gens more hate, but I think the cast requirement (ie time) plus the disc req make it mostly useful vs tougher targets. The bonus damage is also most useful vs the those targets. I think m4d mortal enemy is most helpful if you don't have hungering arrow, to support your single target hate spender. If you have hungering arrow you might as well use it instead.
I too have thought of using Prep-punishment, cluster and multi:
I think the key to a punishment build is utilizing most of your disc for punishment. I use FoK- fan of daggers for defense, as well as entangling. Entangling also helps round up mobs into discrete groups by slowing the front ones- this amplifies the power of Cluster. I dont feel i need chain gang for this purpose. Multi can gen disc for punishment to fuel cluster, or in the face of large number be used as primary damage. Shooting Stars makes cluster do crazy damage (375; ~455 if using balls) to 3 targets and moderate to others in the area. Hungering for single target.
Passives: grenadier. steady aim. Last would be either archery, balls, Or night stalker.
I want to mention something about Cluster. I think it is an ideal example of principle #3- hatred efficiency isn't everything. If an ability does a ton of damage, but isn't the most efficient, it may still better better than an efficient skill, because I can be using hate generators while you're still catching up to the damage of my first shot.
Edited by Tachycardia#1921 on 4/25/2012 5:57 PM PDT
I didn't actually fiddle around on the open beta, and have avoided reading too much about D3 until recently. I started poking around on the calculator recently, and came up with http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#UcYjfg!gYb!aabYYa
Grenades - Tinkerer
Of all the rune options, the Hatred generation seemed important.
Rapid Fire - Withering Fire
I wasn't sure how Hatred was going to feel, so I wanted to make sure I had enough Hatred generation and efficiency to keep Rapid Fire up during bosses.
Caltrops - Jagged Spikes
Snare, and runed for some extra damage since my damage options are going to end up being just Grenades and Rapid Fire.
Marked for Death - Mortal Enemy
Used for both more Hatred and the damage boost. I read the Hatred generation doesn't play well with Rapid Fire though, so I'm considering switching to one of the other runes (basically any except Death Toll).
Evasive Fire - Displace
This seemed like a good option, especially with the rune, to combine with Caltrops so I can keep up Steady Aim.
Shadow Power - Night Bane
I wanted some sort of healing option; one I could Rune for extra Hatred generation was the obvious option.
Passives: Grenadier, Steady Aim, Vengeance
Grenadier is only for the extra Hatred on Grenades, since I don't have Cluster Arrow. Steady Aim looked too good to pass up. Vengeance, I'm not entirely sure about. I'm concerned about my Discipline usage, so I was also looking at Custom Engineering or Night Stalker to try and generate more, or increase my efficiency with it.
Any massive errors I've made?
I find a lot of peoples builds have no certain ..'goal'. A lot of players are picking up Rapid Fire as a main source of damage. Is this because RF-WF is available early in the game? or do they actually genuinely believe the skill is good?
When designing a build you have to weigh whether you are burst or sustain DPS. Are you mobile or stationary? AoE or Single Target? Being a Jack of all Trades makes you lack in nothing... and more importantly everything. Players need to find a balance towards a certain goal to actually get something out of this so called 'balance'.
A build of a Stationary / Sustained / Single Target PvP build focused on Melee opponents
-Plant Spike Traps where you decide to make a stand
-Marked for Death your opponent
-Hit with Entangling / Generate Hatred
-Baited into Spike Traps. DH takes some damage
-Vault away and vault right back and knockback/stun opponent.. place Spike Trap or Traps depending on how much you Hatred you regenerated back
-Use Prep or save Prep
-Entangling Shot / Elemental arrow if he is moving in obvious pattern. Both are Runed for Life Steal
-Repeat or change up depending on Opponents reaction
*The player could opt to simply change Vault to run Action Shot or Trail of Cinders and not double Vault right back into the opponent for a juke with Rattling Roll.
*Replace Prep with Shadow Power-Gloom or Smoke Screen-Choking Gas or Caltrops-Torturous Ground
*Repleace Vault with any of the 3 above options.
Everything in that sequence works with each other. The Spike Traps early on used up 9/10 Hatred. Placed a MfD and started to generate Hatred back with the passive Thrill of the Hunt buying time for extra regeneration. Notice the first Hatred generation sequence doesn't use Elemental Arrow(will explain later on). The passive Numbing Traps are there to reduce the damage you take for playing bait into the traps. The player will take damage either from active spender skills or generators. Vault run or juke. At this point the player would have to consider whether to use Preparation now or save till later.
At the players new location, places 1 or more Spike Trap. 1 Trap if he is low on life, Fire these in sequence 1 ES then 1 EA-NT. The passive Cull the Weak will make ES do 75%/90% and EA 170%/170% respectively for the 1st and 2nd shot(assume without any reductions into the math). ES is 6% LS(lifesteal). The Elemental Arrows inbetween those ES are doing 170% at 3% LS. Each EA is basically 2 shots of ES. Only issue is EA travels slower than ES and can be juked by opponent. EA-NT wasn't used in the first sequence of attacks because at that point there is no real need to heal up as fast since you should be full hp, and you are saving the Hatred regened for the next Trap setup. The first sequence is also a 'feeler'/'teaser'. If anyone is familiar to drag racing, you should know what the term 'sandbagging' is, which is what the first sequence was.
If you bothered to actually read all that, wow. I hope you have a better understanding of what I mean by a 'goal' in your build. Not necessarily 'synergy' between skills, but they have to have a common goal and purpose to be used. The goal of this build was to present the Player as an easy kill, forcing the Opponent to commit into the Traps only to be juked and facing a sustain LS DPS. And don't tell me your goal is to kill. =P
Yes I know there are counters as both Barb and Monk. But you won't know until you face them once. And there are many variations to this build in order to work around hard counter abilities.
TL;DR Nothing for you.
Edited by Atlas5#1662 on 4/26/2012 12:13 AM PDT
You've gone overboard on the Hatred generation, IMHO.
I can see the utility of MfD -> Rapid Fire as a boss killer, though I prefer Impale honestly.
But I can't see how you're going to deal with mobs.
You can't move when you're channeling rapid fire, and grenades are your only other attack. So even if you could keep up rapid fire, mobs will close in on you and spoil your steady aim bonus. Marked for Death won't help there and while Caltrop + Evasive Fire will, your only discipline gain comes from Vengeance, so throwing shadow power on top is stretching your disc budget. If you ever run low on disc, your options are to use rapid fire and hope everything dies before it gets to you, or leg it and use grenades.
A great thread which is very helpful for people who don't have much experience with this sort of game!
Here's my attempt at a crit build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#biZdTj!eYT!YbcbZY
Entangling Shot: I picked this for the snaring ability and runed it for extra Hatred generation, the thinking being that I'm mostly using this to buy time until I have enough Hatred to use Strafe or Impale.
Strafe: Essentially has the same +100% crit dmg rune I'm using for Impale, meaning both benefit from the Sharpshooter passive. In my opinion, Strafe is kind of the steady, average AoE option. Multishot is better against large groups, Cluster Arrow is better against small groups, and Strafe performs adequately against either. I like the mobility offered by this skill, and I'm hoping gearing for some +crit along with Sharpshooter will give it enough DPS to kill quickly.
Impale: Runed for +100% crit dmg, this is the go-to for priority targets and bosses. Takes advantage of the crit focus of this build.
Vault: I loved my brief time with this skill in the open beta. I feel it's useful in maintaining the Steady Aim bonus and provides an escape mechanism. I'm not really sure which rune to go with, so Tumble it is for now.
Companion: I went for the extra Hatred regen as I'm not planning to utilize my Hatred generator as a significant % of my dps. The idea is to be able to use Strafe and Impale as much as possible, but I'm not sure how sound that line of thinking is.
Marked for Death: Runed for extra Hatred generation to let me use Impale more often. It's mostly for high HP mobs like bosses/champions. I could see a lot of other useful skills taking up this slot and would love suggestions.
Passives: I'm aboard the Steady Aim + Archery bandwagon. I chose Sharpshooter to boost crit chance although I've seen people claim this is a terrible passive. I'm open to changing it and curious as to why it's regarded so poorly by some.
Based on this, I've dropped Rapid Fire for Impale with Chemical Burn. I've considered Elemental Arrow, potentially with Frost Arrow as both a snare and some additional elemental coverage, but I'm not sure how necessary that will be.
I've also dropped Shadow Power for Cluster Arrow. Does the wording of the Cluster Bombs rune mean that instead of scattering bombs at the impact point it drops them along the path travelled, or is that in addition to?
I'll also probably drop Vengeance for Archery since I have less Hatred generation, so I'm not as concerned with capping and wasting any.
Edited by Sildas#1733 on 4/26/2012 9:40 AM PDT
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