Diablo® III

Analyzing Barbarian vs. Monk tanking

Posts: 69
In Diablo III, two classes are standing out as the 'go to' classes for tanking groups of mobs in a party situation.

As such, let's take a close look at the Slow Time and Diamond Skin mechanics of the Wizard and how they will impact tanking, and compare them to the cookie-cutter Gargantuan tank build of the Witch Doctor!

(Pause)

Don't go, I was only kidding!

(Still here?)

Okay, let's take an ability by ability look at the Barb and Monk and see what to expect for those whose noble job it is to get punched in the head for the sake of their group.

This post will focus on actual damage mitigation. Stuns and knockbacks aren't as useful situation to situation, so they won't be addressed. If you'd like them added in feel free to let your thoughts be known, however!

Ability by Ability (* = Rune perk)

Generators
Barbarian
Frenzy 8% Life Regen on Kill*

Monk
Fists of Thunder 16% Dodge for 2 seconds*
Deadly Reach 50% Armor for 4 seconds*
Crippling Wave 20% Attack Speed Debuff, 20% Damage Reduction Debuff*

Secondary
Barbarian
Rend 9% Life Leech*
Whirlwind 1% Life Regen on Crit*
Monk
Tempest Rush 25% Damage Reduction* or a 20% Damage Reduction Debuff*

Defensive
Barbarian
Leap Movement Utility, +300% Armor for 4 seconds* 16 yard Enemy Collection*
Sprint Movement Utility, 12% Dodge* or boost Group Movement for 3 seconds*
Ignore Pain 65% Dmg Red for 6-7* Seconds, 20% Life Drain on attacks, Buff Allies, Dmg Reflection
Monk
Blinding Flash 30-60*% Elite Miss Chance, 25% Confusion chance
Breath of Heaven 6-7 or 8-9k* Heal, or 1.5 second Fear
Serenity 3-4* Second Immunity, 6-7k Heal*, Ally Buff*, Dmg Reflect*, Projectile Reflect*
Inner Sanctuary 5-7* Second Root(In Reverse), 7k Heal*, 35% Dmg Reduction*

Technique/Might
Barbarian
Ancient Spear Pull 1-3* mobs for Mob Collection, 60% Life Leech*
Revenge 5-8*% Life Regen per Enemy
Furious Charge Movement Utility, and 8% Life Regen per Enemy struck*
Overpower Melee Reflect* or 8% Life per Enemy Struck*
Monk
Dashing Strike Movement Utility, 20% Dodge for 3 seconds*

Tactics/Focus
Barbarian
Weapon Throw 20% Confusion Chance*
Threatening Shout 20% Damage Reduction Debuff, 15% Attack Speed Debuff* Taunt*, 35% Fear
Battle Rage 5% Additional Health Globes
War Cry 20-40*% Armor, +10% Max Life and 310 Life Regen/sec*, 15% Dodge*, 50% Resistances Buff
Monk
Cyclone Strike 24-34* yard Pull, 35% Fear*, 20% Dodge*, 1240 Heal to You and Allies*
Seven Sided Strike Movement Utility, Teleport*
Mystic Ally +10% Max Life, Minion Taunt

Rage/Mantras
Barbarian
Wrath of the Berserker +20-60*% Dodge, +20% Movement Speed, Added Duration*
Monk
Mantra of Evasion 15% Dodge, 20% Armor*, 5% Movement*, -20% Snare Duration*
Mantra of Retribution 40-60*% Melee and Projectile* Damage Reflect,
Mantra of Healing 310-620* Healing/second, +10% Max Vitality*, 20% Damage Resistance*
Mantra of Conviction 10% Damage Reduction Debuff, Chance for 300 Heal on Melee*

Passives
Barbarian
25% Health Gloves and 100% Heal from them, Armor increased by 100% of Vitality, +1% Life Regen/sec when Shouted, 3% Life Leech, 25% Armor and 50% Thorn Damage, 50% Damage Reduction when below 20% Life, 20% Impair Reduction and chance of 15% Life Regen on Stun
Monk
25% Damage Reduction Debuff, 15% Dodge when Dual Wielding, 62 Health Regen per Spirit Spent, 1 point Armor per Dexterity, Dodge increased by 30% of your Crit, 75% Damage Reduction when Stun/Charm/Feared, Resistance to all elements equal to highest resistance, Restored to 35% Life on Fatal Hit.

Writer's Opinion:
Barbarians will thrive in pack tanking, where Revenge will proc endlessly and heal back the damage sustained. Less options available for bosses, where fewer targets means smaller heals.

Monks won't have the armor and constant healing Barbarians do, but better mobility and Healing independent of dealing damage are big strengths.

I believe that the first Inferno clear that utilizes a Tanking strategy will rely on a Monk - but ultimately more clears will be done - and done faster - with Barbarians

BUILDS
(Including Source if Possible)

Barbarian
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#bcXRVk!bVU!ZZabca
Cleave and Rend, with Ignore Pain and Revenge. Armor, Armor, and more Armor.

Monk
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WcXgdh!ZYU!ZYZaca
Crippling Wave, Tons of Mobility and 2 Big Heals.
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87 Dwarf Priest
10450
Posts: 1,160
Good post.

04/19/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Endgame
I believe that the first Inferno clear that utilizes a Tanking strategy will rely on a Monk - but ultimately more clears will be done - and done faster - with Barbarians


If other games are any indication, what influences tank choice for farming clears is tank dps (see Aion, where templars are the tank class, but people take gladiators to tank because they do more dps). It's unclear that barbs have better dps than monks. Monks have exploding palm.

edit: I think superstition is a better tanking passive than relentless. I think vengeance is mine is better than provocation in most pack tanking situations (just plot the expected value of life gained as a function of tanked mobs).
Edited by Puca#1857 on 4/19/2012 8:49 PM PDT
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Posts: 790
@ Endgame

A very good, comprehensive post.

At a glance I only saw one thing missing. And that's Mantra of Evasion(Divine Guardian) which does affect all allies under the Mantra's effect. This ability can only activate at most once every 90 seconds, and it reduces incoming damage supposedly by 80% for something like 7 seconds if the player's health drops below 20%. The tooltip's information is gone now and the only information we have about it now is from previous Betas.

Your Barb build is close to what mine would be if I were playing a group tank. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#aZRXVk!bYV!bYYaab

It's somewhat of a stamina-focused build. One key difference between yours and mine is the secondary skill. When I saw HotA(Thunderstruck) I knew I had to have that. Especially if there's not diminished returns on stuns, this will be superior in my opinion to getting back life from Rend. I also knew that if I went this route I would want to increase my rage generation so it could be used more regularly.
I thought about getting Bash(Instigation) but having full time +18% damage buff with Bash(Punish) sounds even better as it makes HotA that more likely to kill something.
My rune choice for War Cry is debatable. I'm not quite sure how well Armor is going to scale, and for now I'll just consider the synergy between having more life and Revenge doing more healing (not to mention 5 rage per hit).
Ignore Pain is obviously a great CD. If I'm the only melee class in the group I would pick IP(Ignorance is Bliss) otherwise I would stick with IP(Mob Rule).
Leap is a no brainer. Any Barb who runs without it regardless of his role is a tool (joke).
As for passives, if I'm facing hard content that's wrecking my face I would switch out Tough as Nails for Relentless (more HotA spamming).
I picked Weapons Master under the presumption that if I'm using a Mighty Weapon I'll get 3 fury per hit. Sounds too good to be true. I should probably consider using Cleave as my fury generator for this purpose alone.

I haven't come up with a "tanking" Monk build technically, but one particular defensive focused solo build I have might mesh well with the role.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQdbg!ZXT!ZZccZa
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Interesting observations about the barbarian tanking groups while monks tanking solos
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If that's the case, then I can see the possibility of Inferno groups having 1 Barbarian and 1 Monk, and two dps focused classes.

During dungeon clears, the Barbarian tanks while the monk heals/dps, then once you've encountered a boss, the Barbarian and Monks switch specs to dps and tank respectively, then switch back once the boss is down and you continue dungeon crawling.

Something else I find interesting, is the dps will also be changing specs during group/solo encounters. Meaning, they'll have two builds; one for dungeon crawling and the other for downing bosses.

Can't wait to see what everyone comes up with ^^.
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Posts: 304
I don't really have a refined barb tanking build but here is a Solo inferno monk build I made:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WdbXkj!XYZ!Zbcbcb

Here's its thread:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3840666667?page=1#0
It's hard to follow since the calculator changed the order skills display but the first post has some explanations in it.
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I really dont care much about tanking, but every team is going to have a monk for atleast one of the mantras, even if the barb is a tank hes going to want mantra of healing to make his life much easier, plus he has shouts that are similiar to mantras but stacking those with mantras will be godlike
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Posts: 137
Barb can do the tank, monk can stand on it own.
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85 Human Paladin
10515
Posts: 162
Is there really a "tank" in this game? I know some have more damage reduction but as far as a "tank" everyone is a dps.
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I feel that the monk has less damage reduction and less consistent healing - but it has more ability to control the movement of mobs, protect squishies in the group, and burst heals for everyone. Therefore - in my opinion, I think there should be both a monk and a barb in each party - which will focus on keeping the mobs around them. The monk can easily support the barb in such close proximity with heals and help keep mobs there. The barb has the greatest damage reduction. To me - if used together, they are a great duo team with unbelievable sustain power. Plus its a broski to share the pain with.

Overall (opinion of course), I think the monk is a better asset to a group than a barbarian because he can be incredibly tanky on his own while healing and supporting his team members.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WZVfQX!XfZ!caacac

Nearly every ability on that build can crowd control, heal, or debuff enemies - while making the monk incredibly tanky.
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Posts: 760
04/22/2012 01:37 PMPosted by Varabens
Is there really a "tank" in this game? I know some have more damage reduction but as far as a "tank" everyone is a dps.


Is there even a threat table in this game? I have no idea.
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Posts: 790
04/22/2012 04:12 PMPosted by Hayes
Is there really a "tank" in this game? I know some have more damage reduction but as far as a "tank" everyone is a dps.


Is there even a threat table in this game? I have no idea.


No threat table, but threat is decided by proximity I think.
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87 Dwarf Priest
10450
Posts: 1,160
There are taunts. Unclear how threat works.
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85 Human Death Knight
0
Posts: 54
I haven't come up with a "tanking" Monk build technically, but one particular defensive focused solo build I have might mesh well with the role.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQdbg!ZXT!ZZccZa


Crippling wave, fists of thunder and deadly reach are all generators. Each defensive buff lasts for such a short amount of time you can only reasonably have one up at a time. Why in the world would you have all three in one build?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WfXdgQ!ZYe!acZbaa

This is my monk tank build, it focuses on self healing and is meant for soloing content. Seems like it could work well in a group since several healing abilities are aoe though and cyclone strike is a powerful peel for ranged. Not sure yet if mantra of healing or evasion is more beneficial so I may switch them.
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Posts: 790
I haven't come up with a "tanking" Monk build technically, but one particular defensive focused solo build I have might mesh well with the role.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQdbg!ZXT!ZZccZa


Crippling wave, fists of thunder and deadly reach are all generators. Each defensive buff lasts for such a short amount of time you can only reasonably have one up at a time. Why in the world would you have all three in one build?


Just in the Beta people have been pushing the Monk's APS to nearly 3.00. Here's proof if you want it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egp-tuyKCds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpc9LSzTZ_A
These Monk's are going through all three strikes in the combo sequence in nearly one second, and I think it's safe to assume that through gear we'll be capable of attacking much faster come the higher levels. The second link shows the true potential of repeat mouse macros. You'll notice in that video the generators are somewhat randomized and appear uncontrollable, but there will be certain tricks to guide the sequence you want. If FoT(Thunderclap) is in your build (which in mine it's not), you will frequently use it in the first strike because it will teleport you to a monster not quite in melee range. Deadly Reach will naturally cast more often in the third strike because anytime you arrive at the third strike in sequence out of melee range it will go off anyway because it's the only generator and sequence combination that doesn't require short-range. And most importantly, using any spirit spender forces a reset on your combo sequence, so for my build you bet I'll put Deadly Reach in as the third button press if I'm using a macro. All of this leads me to believe that I'll have no trouble at all keeping up the buffs and debuffs from all three combo generators.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WfXdgQ!ZYe!acZbaa

This is my monk tank build, it focuses on self healing and is meant for soloing content. Seems like it could work well in a group since several healing abilities are aoe though and cyclone strike is a powerful peel for ranged. Not sure yet if mantra of healing or evasion is more beneficial so I may switch them.


Your build seems very defensive, indeed. You won't be dishing out very much damage. I really think your build is way overkill in the healing department. First off I don't understand why you'd want Breath of Heaven and Transcendence both. That seems like a waste of the skill slot. But that's just the half of it. You chose both healing rune effects for Cyclone Strike and Serenity, and you elected to use Mantra of Healing(Sustenance). At the very least you'd either want to change Mantras and switch out a few of the healing runes, or definitely a different passive in place of Transcendence.
Edited by Snoo#1470 on 4/22/2012 11:49 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Posts: 1,787
I haven't come up with a "tanking" Monk build technically, but one particular defensive focused solo build I have might mesh well with the role.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQdbg!ZXT!ZZccZa


Crippling wave, fists of thunder and deadly reach are all generators. Each defensive buff lasts for such a short amount of time you can only reasonably have one up at a time. Why in the world would you have all three in one build?


That is not necessarily true. There's a link to a Youtube video with a guy in beta who had(with shrine buff) 2.97 attacks per second for his attack speed. This is on a 13th level Monk.

The gear for attack speed will undoubtedly be MUCH better at higher levels, making 3 attacks per second seem like it should be pretty easily attainable. When you factor in the MUCH higher levels of mob hit points in higher levels(the few videos from Blizz we've seen show this) keeping 2 or even 3 of these buffs up shouldn't be impossible.

2 for SURE. Three some of the time. If you really care enough to try to do so... It'll be a pain to try to keep 3 up and they certainly won't be up when you're engaging, but it could be worth it.

Maybe. ;P

Rofl. Ninja'd!
Edited by Zanathos#1462 on 4/23/2012 1:46 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
10085
Posts: 417
Good post. I like the comparisons. I think you should do a rewrite of the opinion based conclusion after release because you will have more information.
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87 Dwarf Priest
10450
Posts: 1,160
Wanted to add my WD tanking build for feedback:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ceUdSX!ZcT!caZZZY

... I am serious!
Edited by Puca#1857 on 4/28/2012 10:16 AM PDT
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Wanted to add my WD tanking build for feedback:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#ceUdSX!ZcT!caZZZY

... I am serious!


One thing that jumped out was that the only spell spreading Bad Medicine is Locust swarm. BEcause of the high cost of the spell and short duration, you might want something a little more spammable to spread it around. You might want to test out dropping Bad Med if playing solo or jungle fort if grouping.
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