Diablo® III

THE summoner build?

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#WRYkTP!dZh!cacZaZ

I know there are other build threads, but I wanted to get feedback on the idea of having each active skill related to a summons, and whether or not it's viable. Normally when I see a summoner build it's ZDs, garg and fetish army, and the rest are non-summons related damage and cc. I think it's a cool concept but I'm concerned there won't be enough damage. I wanted to have zombie chargers instead of wall of zombies, but I felt that I needed some type of CC there for the fast moving champ packs.

I'm wondering if Hex is a reliable enough CC to replace WoZ with a bigger nuke (as I said above with charger).. or if I should replace Hex, but Hedge Magic seems really useful for a summoner oriented build. I also suppose it's debatable whether Toads is a summoning spell, but it's more the concept behind it.

Any thoughts/critiques?
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87 Dwarf Priest
9205
Summoner builds from D2 are dead in D3. Pets are a form of crowd control, or a damage cooldown, not a permanent option of doing damage like skeletons were for the summoner necro in D2.
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04/23/2012 01:44 PMPosted by Maharal
Summoner builds from D2 are dead in D3. Pets are a form of crowd control, or a damage cooldown, not a permanent option of doing damage like skeletons were for the summoner necro in D2.


Summoner builds are perfectly viable.
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Im dying to try out summoner builds and alot of my build depends on how well pets scale. If they are fine, and arent dying all the time in later difficulties ill go with something like this
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#hSYTQP!hde!cccZbZ

This is for a pure minion focused build where the damage i do just supports my minions. For the big packs you always have your big cooldowns such as fetish army, and big bad voodoo, talk about win. The biggest issue is i wish they let me have a 4th rune slot. So its a toss up between Jungle Fort and Tribal rites - If my pets are doing fine without jungle fort, then ill stick with tribal rites. It might be i have to get a little more defensive in the later difficulties, so time will tell on the build i finally settle with. The other thing would be my secondary - If my pets do fine, i can keep a secondary aoe spell to help clear out trash quicker, if i need more help because things just hit too hard, i can always trade out locust swarm for hex
Edited by Burned#1871 on 4/24/2012 7:04 AM PDT
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85 Tauren Shaman
4135
Summoner builds from D2 are dead in D3. Pets are a form of crowd control, or a damage cooldown, not a permanent option of doing damage like skeletons were for the summoner necro in D2.


Summoner builds are perfectly viable.


-Agreed but you can't have a full Summoner build like D2

eg. (My build I have pets but my Mouse Clicker buttons are Spammable skills -

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#biYjTQ!ZcU!cZacZY
Edited by Tormod#1147 on 4/24/2012 7:59 AM PDT
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04/24/2012 07:58 AMPosted by Foxfiend


Summoner builds are perfectly viable.


-Agreed but you can't have a full Summoner build like D2



Right, but that's not what I was saying. Just to have the skills be "summoner oriented". For example, instead of Poison Dart, have Toads or Spiders. Instead of Horrify or MC for crowd control, have Hex or WoZ.
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85 Tauren Shaman
4135
Im not sure what ur Complete Argument is about still. Summoner Builds Are Viable cuz foe example like the Corpse of Spiders it is somewhat of a CC in where the spiders take Aggro if ur good with them.
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This is the real pet tank build! haha

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#bRYZTP!dcZ!ZcaaYZ

PS* Grasp of the Dead (Unbreakable Grasp) makes you almost untouchable. Big Stinker, Rabid Dogs and Unstable Form trigger Bad Medicine!
PS 2* Spider Queen can be changed if she dont aggro.
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You don't actually have all the summons in there. The summons you missed out are;

Corpse Spider - Spider queen rune

Spirit Barrage - Manitou rune

Plague of toads - Toad of Hugeness

And the spells that you have equiped that aren't actually summoning spells, but "summon" a unit that may aswell just be a visual effect, in order to deal damage are

Plague of toads - toad affinity

Wall of zombies - unrelenting grip

Those are actually damaging / snaring spells, and inferior ones at that. Not to mention they both have no cooldown so you're casting one at the expense of another

Last and perhaps most importantly is the issue with your passives;

If you have the 'circle of life' passive, you don't need to have summon zombie dogs as a skill. According to beta testers, it doesn't take long to get 3 zombie dogs summoned, so you free up a whole skill slot for another summon

Secondly, the fetish psycophants would be essential for a summoner. The same 3% chance to summon a fetish from a physical spell, except these fetishes last 60 SECONDS instead of 15 seconds from the fetish army spell. Combining this and circle of life whilst having one physical spell to constantly spam will be the definite best way to get a heap of summons and deal the most damage.

The last passive is up to you; pierce the veil if you can afford the mana (EVERYTHING does 20% more damage - much better than just one more zombie dog) or tribal rites / jungle fortitude as you have suggested. You can have zombie dog one but in my opinion the others will be better. Perhaps even fierce loyalty if thorns proves to be effective.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#iWbgTP!aeW!cZZcZZ
Edited by Baz#6478 on 4/24/2012 9:01 AM PDT
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87 Dwarf Priest
9205
Summoner builds from D2 are dead in D3. Pets are a form of crowd control, or a damage cooldown, not a permanent option of doing damage like skeletons were for the summoner necro in D2.


Summoner builds are perfectly viable.


If you say so. You won't be clearing inferno with a summoner. Is that viable? Summons don't do enough damage to be viable in higher difficulties to be your only source of damage.

If you want to make a caster with pets as a form of crowd control that's fine, but that's not a summoner build anymore.
Edited by Puca#1857 on 4/24/2012 9:20 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
4910
How do you know Summons wont do enough dmg in higher difficulties.. Oh wait I am sorry You have the game and played Inferno and know exactly that pets dont do good dmg...
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87 Dwarf Priest
9205
Look, everything is relative to weapon damage %. Dogs do like 9% a piece, gargantuan does like 35% a hit. In comparison bats does 200%+ per second, hard hitter skills of others classes are comparable.

It's pretty obvious enemy HP will be balanced around big attacks not dinky little ones. But you know, feel free to play a pet build if you want. It will be like using D2 druid pets for damage in Hell difficulty.
Edited by Puca#1857 on 4/24/2012 9:43 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
4910
Ur not even understanding the WD and his spells its not like u can keep up FireBats 90% of the time..Its a burst skill......And pets with passives that increase durability will be up 90% of the time most likely even in inferno (IDK yet truthfully cuz we havnt played inferno yet.) so to compare the wpn dmg of the abilities is useless becuase pets are always up doing the same dmg throughout and are sustainable dmg... And FireBats is a burst skill wich u can use once in a while.
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You literally have nothing to spend your mana on. Pick something to spend your mana on and changing the rune of Toads does not count. If you are so stuck on summoner, go with Zombie Charger.
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You don't actually have all the summons in there. The summons you missed out are;

Corpse Spider - Spider queen rune

Spirit Barrage - Manitou rune

Plague of toads - Toad of Hugeness

And the spells that you have equiped that aren't actually summoning spells, but "summon" a unit that may aswell just be a visual effect, in order to deal damage are

Plague of toads - toad affinity

Wall of zombies - unrelenting grip

Those are actually damaging / snaring spells, and inferior ones at that. Not to mention they both have no cooldown so you're casting one at the expense of another

Last and perhaps most importantly is the issue with your passives;

If you have the 'circle of life' passive, you don't need to have summon zombie dogs as a skill. According to beta testers, it doesn't take long to get 3 zombie dogs summoned, so you free up a whole skill slot for another summon

Secondly, the fetish psycophants would be essential for a summoner. The same 3% chance to summon a fetish from a physical spell, except these fetishes last 60 SECONDS instead of 15 seconds from the fetish army spell. Combining this and circle of life whilst having one physical spell to constantly spam will be the definite best way to get a heap of summons and deal the most damage.

The last passive is up to you; pierce the veil if you can afford the mana (EVERYTHING does 20% more damage - much better than just one more zombie dog) or tribal rites / jungle fortitude as you have suggested. You can have zombie dog one but in my opinion the others will be better. Perhaps even fierce loyalty if thorns proves to be effective.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#iWbgTP!aeW!cZZcZZ


I like this build. I have played around with CoL in the beta, it doesn't seem to take long to get all three dogs out, but the problem I was thinking of is that it's somewhat of a waste because unruned dogs are of much less value to a summoner-based build than runed dogs. Although I suppose if I added Zombie Handler or Jungle Fortitude over PtV it might mitigate that somewhat, making them a little tougher. Thanks.

Look, everything is relative to weapon damage %. Dogs do like 9% a piece, gargantuan does like 35% a hit. In comparison bats does 200%+ per second, hard hitter skills of others classes are comparable.

It's pretty obvious enemy HP will be balanced around big attacks not dinky little ones. But you know, feel free to play a pet build if you want. It will be like using D2 druid pets for damage in Hell difficulty.


I never said a summoner would be the hardest hitting class, but I think it would be fun/viable. That being said i think you're looking at it wrong.. dogs give you passive dps over time, whereas firebats gives you burst and drains your mana in about 5 seconds. And, it's not just 9%, if you have three dogs that's 27% (un-runed) fire-and-forget damage which is extremely mana efficient.

Not arguing, just discussing.
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87 Dwarf Priest
9205
04/24/2012 09:53 AMPosted by Foxbro
Ur not even understanding the WD and his spells its not like u can keep up FireBats 90% of the time..Its a burst skill......And pets with passives that increase durability will be up 90% of the time most likely even in inferno (IDK yet truthfully cuz we havnt played inferno yet.) so to compare the wpn dmg of the abilities is useless becuase pets are always up doing the same dmg throughout and are sustainable dmg... And FireBats is a burst skill wich u can use once in a while.


Locusts with the mana rune is sustainable and outdamages pets while being AoE. Haunt with an appropriate passive and rune is sustainable and does 400+ weapon damage % per second (if applied to 3 targets).

Right now in beta I do 95% of my killing with bats. With proper passive/mana regen support, that will continue.

Pets do make you more durable, but you will not be able to do most of your killing with 9% weapon damage x 3. The skeleton king one shots pets (on normal mode!) Pets as main damage source is a dumb idea in Diablo 3.
Edited by Puca#1857 on 4/24/2012 12:17 PM PDT
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04/24/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Maharal
Pets as main damage source is a dumb idea in Diablo 3.


So even though ZDs aren't meant to be boss tanks, you are basing the fact that all end game pet builds, regardless of skill combinations, are useless because ZDs die quickly to the SK in the beta? We are all just speculating here but that's a pretty bold assumption. I also never said 9% x3 should be the "main" damage source, it's a passive dps bonus that is extremely mana efficient.

04/24/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Maharal
Right now in beta I do 95% of my killing with bats


So does every other WD in the beta. It means absolutely nothing. Everything is 9 levels below you once you are at level 10-13, so you only have to cast firebats for 1 second to obliterate the entire screen. The only other option is Haunt which you have no need for in the beta. I'm not saying Firebats won't be useful, but it won't be the cure all that it is in the beta, and damage wise it is actually very mana inefficient.
Edited by Vorador#1326 on 4/24/2012 1:19 PM PDT
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87 Dwarf Priest
9205
04/24/2012 01:17 PMPosted by Vorador
So even though ZDs aren't meant to be boss tanks, you are basing the fact that all end game pet builds, regardless of skill combinations, are useless because ZDs die quickly to the SK in the beta? We are all just speculating here but that's a pretty bold assumption. I also never said 9% x3 should be the "main" damage source, it's a passive dps bonus that is extremely mana efficient.


It's certain true that dogs will add to your dps, and that they are mana efficient if they do not die. The question is, is 9% x 3 worth a skill slot? Not as a damage skill, for sure. Almost any source of damage is better as a slot. You may argue that dogs are worth a slot because they keep mob attention off you, and I agree! But then you are taking dogs as a form of crowd control that happens to do a bit of damage on the side (kind of like grasp of the dead).

No one is using grasp of the dead as a dps skill, and no one will use dogs as a dps skill. These skills are for crowd control, and the vast majority if your dps will not come from these skills.

If dogs are not meant as boss tanks, and if dogs do terrible dps, and if people kill packs using bats or locusts, what exactly is the point of dogs? Most pack dps is not from dogs, dogs are useless on bosses, there is not much else to this game!
Edited by Puca#1857 on 4/24/2012 2:58 PM PDT
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#WRYkTP!dZh!cacZaZ

I know there are other build threads, but I wanted to get feedback on the idea of having each active skill related to a summons, and whether or not it's viable. Normally when I see a summoner build it's ZDs, garg and fetish army, and the rest are non-summons related damage and cc. I think it's a cool concept but I'm concerned there won't be enough damage. I wanted to have zombie chargers instead of wall of zombies, but I felt that I needed some type of CC there for the fast moving champ packs.

I'm wondering if Hex is a reliable enough CC to replace WoZ with a bigger nuke (as I said above with charger).. or if I should replace Hex, but Hedge Magic seems really useful for a summoner oriented build. I also suppose it's debatable whether Toads is a summoning spell, but it's more the concept behind it.

Any thoughts/critiques?


Similar to my summoner builds that I've tinkered with. the only changes I'd make would be to change the damage spells. With all the summons, I dont think the Wall of Zombies is really needed. I would replace that with Zombie bear for massive short range damage and Change the rune on the Frogs to the rain of toads (After watching the preview video :) for long range AOE.

Like so:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#WfYRTP!dZh!bccaaZ
Edited by Grashnak#1410 on 4/24/2012 6:48 PM PDT
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