Diablo® III

1 gen or 3 gen?

Posts: 2,005
I am happy with using just 1. I might throw in 2 but i never plan to use combination strike. Its just unreliable.

Maybe for a boss fight but i don't want to loose my Nephlam MF buff.
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04/24/2012 03:55 PMPosted by mistrfantasy
Lets look at it this way: With 4 slots as spirit generators, you get a measly 32% dps boost assuming you can keep the passive buff @ 100% up time. If you replace 1 of those spirit generators with Mystic Ally, you have a about a 120% additional damage(its 40% weapon damage + whatever rune ability you pick(approx 80%-120% weapon damage) vs a 32% boost over * 110% weapon damage) in addition to a 24% boost from the passive. As you can see, picking mystic ally would be way better then picking up a 4th ability. This is generally true for most spirit generators, as they deal significantly less damage then the abilities that spend spirit. You would severely gimp your damage in most cases if you went with a 4th ability. The opportunity cost of spirit spenders is just too high.


I do not believe this is correct. You can only spend time doing one thing at a time. If that thing is attacking, which attack you are using of 6 possible skills makes no difference.

The ally spell is at least a "passive" damage buff, however it is nowhere near as strong as you just posted it to be. You have no idea how quickly it attacks and how frequently it uses its skills. Neither of those frequencies will be on par with your own attacks is my guess.

Most skills appear to be quite a bit worse than auto attacking in fact. You can't STK AND Spam something else that takes spirit. You really only need one spirit dump and this build chooses passive dmg increase (overawe spam) rather than slowing down the auto attack spam.

This will be a much easier argument to have when the game is live and you just can test DPS with a 4gen macro spam build against a 2gen skill based build.

My guess is that, due to most spirit dumps being horribly slow/inefficient compared to just attacking and having passive damage increase, 4gen will be able to compete with 2gen. Will it be better? Who knows! I bet it will look super awesome though! haha.
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90 Undead Death Knight
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Posts: 34
Idk about you guys, but I for one would think using the same four abilities the whole game would get extremely repetitive. Even if it does increase your damage output, I think using other skills would be way more fun overall.
Edited by Gerulfman#1357 on 4/24/2012 4:16 PM PDT
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04/24/2012 04:16 PMPosted by Amyntas
Idk about you guys, but I for one would think using the same four abilities the whole game would get extremely repetitive. Even if it does increase your damage output, I think using other skills would be way more fun overall.


I dunno bout that. I played a LOT of D2 and here are some skill breakdowns:

Sorc: Tele, frost armor, mana shield, nova/orb/blizz/fireball/firewall choose 1.
Javezon: Lighting javelin. (admittedly boring as all hell! had to level my toons somehow though)
Pally: Blessed Hammer, charge, smite concentration aura. (replace charge with tele once you get enigma for epic winz)
Barb: shout, shout, shout, WW/frenzy choose 1.

Not seeing a whole lot of skills there and I LOVED D2. :)
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To each their own i guess.
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Posts: 145
I have to agree with Snoo in general. He has the right idea regarding the multi generator build types.

I think people are getting WAY to caught up in making perfect combos and squeezing every last benefit from each exact strike on their combo. This is all fine and good on paper but in reality it will be next to impossible to pull off the same 3 strikes in order, cycle after cycle from 3 different generators, be it with ubber skill doing it manually or with a perfectly timed macro.

For the sake of argument lets remove the macro from the picture. You have Left Click, Right Click and a finger on your 1 key on the keyboard at all times. Once you get up to 4aps you will have to make split second decisions over 4 times per second (remember all generators add even more to your aps and each one adds a different value at different strikes). So without being exact lets say you will be able to land at least 5 strikes per second in average. Thats 5 clicks in one second that you have to do manually.

That in itself doesn't sound to complicated, and is something that can easily be achieved once you get into a nice rythm. The problem lies on the fact that each one of those 5 clicks HAS to land on a target that is within range of each strike. If you click on on the ground or on an item that is on the ground or on an enemy that is out of range of the next strike on your rotation, say goodbye to your perfect combo. It will become a random mish mash of skill executions. I don't see a way around it. The Monk will just be to fast to be able to do this unless you have a godly amount of skill and a wrist that can take that kind of punishment.

The way I see it you should pick your generators and place them in the "ideal" order but taking into account the total randomization of their execution. Lets take for example FoT + Thunderclap, CW + Breaking Wave and WotHF + Windfore Flury. You want Thunderclap for the mobility, but the other 2 strikes deal some AoE damage and that is never a bad thing. CW with Breaking Wave will work on ANY strike from CW and if you're surrounded and all of a sudden you thet CW's third strike, that won't be a bad thing and it will even add another debuf in the process. WotHF will deal more damage per strike than any other generator no matter what strike you get and when you do get that third strike from Windforce Flurry you will blast everything ahead of you.

Also take into account the 3 second buffs you will get from CW and the use of Combination Strike. You will be attacking so fast that it is highly probable, statistically speaking, that you will get all 9 strikes available to you from all 3 generators at least once during those 3 seconds so you will have no problem keeping those buffs going.

The key to these types of builds will undoubtedly be dual wielding and as much attack speed bonuses from gear as possible. I don't see this happening with a slower 2h unless your attack speed bonuses bring you up to at least 2.5+ aps.
Edited by nttdemented#1112 on 4/24/2012 4:55 PM PDT
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Posts: 16
04/24/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Spacely
I do not believe this is correct. You can only spend time doing one thing at a time. If that thing is attacking, which attack you are using of 6 possible skills makes no difference.

That's all speculation and completely wrong. Yes you can only use 1 ability per GCD, but that doesn't mean all GCD's are created equal. For Mystic Ally, that's damage above your base generator output. Just using mystic ally as an example, you cast it once, and you get 40%*(# of attacks) + (80%-120%*# of special attacks) + 24%*(base generator damage). There is no way Mystic Ally won't beat a +8% passive bonus damage to your base generator damage. Just look at it from a design perspective, there's no way an ability that gives you spirit will out-damage an ability that COSTS spirit. Per GCD, a spirit-costing ability will either out-damage a spirit generator or provide key utility(like mobility, heal, or protection). Just look at abilities like 7sided strike, cyclone strike, exploding palm, lashing tail strike. All of them all deal more damage per GCD than any generator. Too many generators are simply redundant, as equipping multiple generators will NOT increase your spirit generation rate.
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Posts: 1,513
^ Have to agree with this. I personally see no value in more than two generators, and even then that's only until other good skills unlock. The passives you gain are cool and all, but they really don't eclipse spirit sinks on anything but long, single target fights. How many times will you encounter this? Probably not much at all except on a handful of bosses. In the meanwhile, you'll be fighting swarm after swarm where dumping spirit to damage or kill as many as possible, as soon as possible would be the priority. And for that, all you need as a generator is FoT until level 60.

There are other ways to gain damage buffs that are not from generators that ALSO do damage of their own.
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Posts: 145
I do not believe this is correct. You can only spend time doing one thing at a time. If that thing is attacking, which attack you are using of 6 possible skills makes no difference.

That's all speculation and completely wrong. Yes you can only use 1 ability per GCD, but that doesn't mean all GCD's are created equal. For Mystic Ally, that's damage above your base generator output. Just using mystic ally as an example, you cast it once, and you get 40%*(# of attacks) + (80%-120%*# of special attacks) + 24%*(base generator damage). There is no way Mystic Ally won't beat a +8% passive bonus damage to your base generator damage. Just look at it from a design perspective, there's no way an ability that gives you spirit will out-damage an ability that COSTS spirit. Per GCD, a spirit-costing ability will either out-damage a spirit generator or provide key utility(like mobility, heal, or protection). Just look at abilities like 7sided strike, cyclone strike, exploding palm, lashing tail strike. All of them all deal more damage per GCD than any generator. Too many generators are simply redundant, as equipping multiple generators will NOT increase your spirit generation rate.


You could argue, using the current status of the Monk's skill calculator, that having really fast spirit generators can deal as much or in some cases more damage than a spirit spender over the same amount of time.

Take SSS for example. It does 7 hits each with 111% damage and from the look of it from videos it isn't that much faster than FoT for example. And it has a long CD. WoL costs so much spirit you can only execute it once before you need to wait for your spirit to regen enough to use it again but it does do a large amount of damage, still one hit from WoL in half a second vs 2.5 hits at 110%+ dmg in that same ammount of time. The gap between the amount of damage that a fast combo of generators can do vs. any given spirit spender over identical periods of time isn't as large as it might seem.
Edited by nttdemented#1112 on 4/24/2012 5:10 PM PDT
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Posts: 16
First you're speculating, from what i can see, 7 sided strike hits really fast anyway, dealing a total of 777% AOE damage in what is 1 GCD. Even if it has a CD, just use another spirit dump like Lashing tail kick. It's designed to be an ultimate nuke, and you won't have a place to put it in a 4 gen setup(4 gen leaves you 1 dump and 1 mantra).

It's not +6 spirit per spirit generator ability I have, it's +6 spirit per spirit generator attack. Having 3 or 4 abilities will still only produce spirit @ the same rate as having only 1 generator ability. The only reason you would ever equip more then 1 spirit generator is for the specific effects the runes can produce(such as FOT->CW->WoHF, but this is impractical and almost impossible to achieve on a consistent basis, as they MUST hit in sequence for it to be worth it. A macro will not keep this in sequence over consecutive uses), but even then, you'd still be sacrificing dps and survivability, as they could be replaced by better spirit spenders.
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Posts: 145
We have to agree to disagree and wait for the game to be released to check all these theories. I for one believe that you do not have to have an exact sequence to get the benefits of a 3 gen build, you will still get the benefits so long as encounters require more than 5 seconds to clear and judging from the videos mobs will be large and plentiful.

It all comes down to if you can add one worthwhile dmg focused spirit spender with two support skills and still be able to survive in the later difficulties.
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Posts: 931
04/24/2012 05:41 PMPosted by mistrfantasy
It's not +6 spirit per spirit generator ability I have, it's +6 spirit per spirit generator attack. Having 3 or 4 abilities will still only produce spirit @ the same rate as having only 1 generator ability. The only reason you would ever equip more then 1 spirit generator is for the specific effects the runes can produce(such as FOT->CW->WoHF, but this is impractical and almost impossible to achieve on a consistent basis, as they MUST hit in sequence for it to be worth it. A macro will not keep this in sequence over consecutive uses), but even then, you'd still be sacrificing dps and survivability, as they could be replaced by better spirit spenders.


I'm glad you brought this up. I agree with this statement mostly based on comparing the unruned value of combo spirit generators versus unruned spirit spenders. Even still, look at Crippling Wave. It's one of the slowest if not the slowest attacking combo generator, but it debuffs the mobs for three seconds, which is a really long time frame in which other abilities could be used as well.

When we enter runes into the picture it becomes a whole nother ball game. Did you notice that in my 4-gen combo spirit generator build I posted in the previous page, I chose two skill/rune sets that increase spirit gained further on critical strike? My spirit regeneration is going to be even greater, and the order of sequence between these two abilities isn't seriously impacting. So you might ask, well why not just pick one of those generators then? The answer is simple. I notice Deadly Reach is faster and its spirit bonus on crit is twice as much as Crippling Wave's, so it will give more spirit, but I still like the idea of consistently debuffing the monsters in melee range, so I'll use both.

Why did I choose FoT(Thunderclap). That's obvious. When my macro is scrolling through the skills and a monster is out of range, this one will get me in there quicker, and it will inherently reset the macro's order (if I repeat the skills in exact order). I could use Dash instead, but that ability is relatively equal in purposeful value and it costs spirit rather than generates it and it lags the game slightly on use, inherently creating attack down-time.

Why did I choose WotHF(Blazing Fists)? This choice is the least valuable to me and it's the one I would replace first, but it comes with the assumption that even though I'm scrolling through four different generators, I'll still be able to keep this buff up full-time when in combat. There's nothing I want more in a build like this than moving and attacking even faster than I already am. What other skill is there that will make me move and attack faster by a threshold of 15% each?

All of what I've explained above is only half the reason I would go with a generator-focused build. The Monk is cursed by having a limited pool of spirit energy. Indeed, spirit spenders in an overall sense are stronger abilities than spirit generators. If you think about it, I've elected a build that will allow me to USE spirit spenders more often than a one or two combo generator build. I've chosen generators that enhance mobility, attack speed, and further spirit regeneration all in an effort to allow myself to spend spirit more. I still have two slots for spirit spenders, and one of them is going to be a Mantra, which happens to be one of the best spenders in the game to use repeatedly. Also, I didn't get it because it was a group build, but transcendence is the perfect kind of passive to legitimize this kind of build.

I know this isn't a template for what every build should look like, but it's highly viable and in some ways better than any other build in its own right.
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Posts: 16
^ per the above, you use 2 crit +spirit runes on 2 different abilities. Again, that's redundant as hell, considering one ability will do it just as well. If you think deadly reach is faster, then by all means use deadly reach, but if you then a +10 spirit crit is worth 1/6th of all your abilities, you're crazy. And it doesn't really solve how you plan maintaining the combo sequence. Look, every build is "viable" for play just like frost mage is viable for WOW PVE, Carriers are viable in Sc2, or Scouts are a viable unit in Brood War. It doesn't make them good.
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What i'm gathering from this is that a 1 spirit generator build can build spirit just as quickly as a 3 generator build due to the fact that you can spam 1 generator just as quickly as you could 3 or 4. The only benefits i'm seeing for a 2-4 generator build is that you will have a few more buffs and debuffs going on as you execute your combos.
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Posts: 931
04/24/2012 10:49 PMPosted by Gerulfman
What i'm gathering from this is that a 1 spirit generator build can build spirit just as quickly as a 3 generator build due to the fact that you can spam 1 generator just as quickly as you could 3 or 4. The only benefits i'm seeing for a 2-4 generator build is that you will have a few more buffs and debuffs going on as you execute your combos.


It's hard to say but probably the most rewarding spirit generators (purely for the sake of generating spirit the quickest) will be either FoT(Quickening) or Deadly Reach (Strike from Beyond). It's debatable which, because FoT attacks faster but doesn't AoE until the third strike, whereas Deadly Reach AoE's at least the second and third strike with significant range on the third. So I could use just one of those combo spirit generators if I wanted the quickest spirit return, right? But where's my Teleport. Where's my crippling wave debuff. Where's my APS/movement buff from Blazing Fists? I want it all! :O
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04/25/2012 12:06 AMPosted by Snoo
It's hard to say but probably the most rewarding spirit generators (purely for the sake of generating spirit the quickest) will be either FoT(Quickening) or Deadly Reach (Strike from Beyond). It's debatable which, because FoT attacks faster but doesn't AoE until the third strike, whereas Deadly Reach AoE's at least the second and third strike with significant range on the third. So I could use just one of those combo spirit generators if I wanted the quickest spirit return, right? But where's my Teleport. Where's my crippling wave debuff. Where's my APS/movement buff from Blazing Fists? I want it all! :O


Well like i said the buffs/debuffs are the difference. But, are they really worth having over LTK knockback/stun? Or blinding lights cc? I mean if you use 4 generators and a mantra how much utillity can you actually squeeze into the build?
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Posts: 1,513

Well like i said the buffs/debuffs are the difference. But, are they really worth having over LTK knockback/stun? Or blinding lights cc? I mean if you use 4 generators and a mantra how much utillity can you actually squeeze into the build?


You can't. You become a one-trick pony that's extremely dull and you won't be able to deal with as many various scenarios. The entire idea of feeling like you MUST add a 20% slow, or 20% damage reduction, while gaining 12% more damage on enemies, to every enemy to me is pretty silly. Cooldowns are much more important than sustaining activated passives in a game filled with trash enemies that die in a matter of seconds (or would die in a matter of seconds with a strong cooldown attack). Play the game however you like, that's what Blizzard wants. Just don't expect a 3+ generator build to do very well in Inferno.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 4/25/2012 9:36 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Posts: 1,844
04/24/2012 08:09 PMPosted by mistrfantasy
^ per the above, you use 2 crit +spirit runes on 2 different abilities. Again, that's redundant as hell, considering one ability will do it just as well. If you think deadly reach is faster, then by all means use deadly reach, but if you then a +10 spirit crit is worth 1/6th of all your abilities, you're crazy. And it doesn't really solve how you plan maintaining the combo sequence. Look, every build is "viable" for play just like frost mage is viable for WOW PVE, Carriers are viable in Sc2, or Scouts are a viable unit in Brood War. It doesn't make them good.


The problem with all this is simple. Spirit generators have a LOT of utility built into them. With the attack speeds that have been reached in the Beta, it seems feasible that we could easily have over 4 APS dual wielding fast weapons, and over 3 using a fast weapon and a shield. If you use a 3 combo build, you would probably only really want to use them in 6 to 8 different orders so it'll be simple to make macros for that. It might actually be way less than that.

The reason I find this compelling is that I think that many of our spirit spenders(nukes especially) aren't worth a spot on my bar. Most of the damaging ones are really garbage. I think once we really do the math and know the nuts and bolts of the game, we'll find that spirit generators DPS is pretty close to the spenders because of casting delays and animation times.

I hope they'll get buffed at some point, but for now it doesn't look like that's going to happen. So really, all I'm going to focus on is crowd control and survivability. i.e. Mantras, Serenity, Inner Sanc, etc.

My thought behind this is simple. Having slightly lower DPS doesn't really matter if mobs can't kill me. Honestly, I don't think that my DPS will really be much lower. With all the crazy APS I'm putting out, my spirit regen should be insane so I'll be able to keep my Mantras active all the time(or most of it). I've even considered going with 2 mantras so that I can get different buffs depending on my situation although the idea of doing this makes the min/maxxer in me go nuts.

All that being said, you're making a lot of assumptions about things not in evidence. We don;t know how most runes will interact with powers since we haven't seen them. Others have discussed how to keep combo sequence... you use macros and spirit spenders that we know reset them.

If you dislike the idea then fine. But telling someone else they're wrong when all your doing is speculating makes you kind of... well, I won't type it because I'd prefer to avoid a forum ban.

Use your imagination.
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Posts: 1,513
In Inferno, you'll almost certainly want to have Breath of Heaven OR at the very least Blinding Flash. Then there's the mantra slot, that would be beyond silly to not include. In a three gen build that leaves you with exactly ONE slot for anything damaging or situationally good that you can't get by simply punching your way through like a bulldog. It's all really just theorycrafting at this point, but I really believe you are giving up way too much for so little.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 4/25/2012 9:43 AM PDT
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04/25/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Zanathos
I've even considered going with 2 mantras so that I can get different buffs depending on my situation although the idea of doing this makes the min/maxxer in me go nuts.


I assume you already know you can only have one mantra active at a time correct?
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