Diablo® III

1 gen or 3 gen?

04/25/2012 09:34 AMPosted by Zanathos
The problem with all this is simple. Spirit generators have a LOT of utility built into them. With the attack speeds that have been reached in the Beta, it seems feasible that we could easily have over 4 APS dual wielding fast weapons, and over 3 using a fast weapon and a shield.


When I think utility, I think CC and heals. Attack speed, move speed, and damage buffs don't really add any surviveability. Damage reduction on enemies is nice but having them not damage you at all is more useful via BF or Serenity or IS. Even if you want a damage boost you can use BoH for a 15% boost for 45 seconds, and you get a nifty heal along with it for you and your party mates, quite a large heal I might add.
Edited by Gerulfman#1357 on 4/25/2012 10:05 AM PDT
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You can't. You become a one-trick pony that's extremely dull and you won't be able to deal with as many various scenarios. The entire idea of feeling like you MUST add a 20% slow, or 20% damage reduction, while gaining 12% more damage on enemies, to every enemy to me is pretty silly. Cooldowns are much more important than sustaining activated passives in a game filled with trash enemies that die in a matter of seconds


You play D2 right? Don't you remember going through the game at the hardest difficulties and killing everything as quickly as possible? Not to say there were never packs of monsters that made you think twice about what you were doing, but it was relatively rare once your damage and resistances were good. This is why I've elected to make my builds rewarding to the highest damage up-time. It's not like I've completely thrown defense or CC out the window.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQUfb!ZYg!abbZYY
This 3-gen combo build offers over 2500 heals per second with a modest health pool of 7-8k. All I'd have to do is keep attacking. How many situations will arise you think where I'll get taken down through those kinds of heals? (assuming I don't totally under-gear the place). So you still think I'll die? I got CS to pull ranged nukers in, and LtK to kick hardass hitting melee out.
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Snoo just remember,

with no CC you will not be able to stop anyone from hitting you. Come inferno there will be champion packs that may have up to 4 or 5 affixes to their names + all their minions.

If you come across a "waller, nightmare, extra strong, molten, frozen" boss. Your going to be in a lot of trouble. And yes, i think they will be able to hit you for more than 2500 per second in Inferno. Not individually, but as a whole. 5-10 melee's plus range all attacking you at once with no CC means you have no time to stand still. Your hitting and moving and this will effect your overall DPS.

The blizzard devs said they had to sac damage for CC and defense come Inferno because it was that hard.

With mobs being 5 to 6 levels above our cap, not having some escape plan will certainly lead to a painful repair bill.

Inferno is going to be a war of attrition, not a war of damage. You wont be able to clear packs of mobs in a couple of seconds like it was in D2. Its going to be a slug fest and or a kite fest.

The more times you prevent enemies from fighting, the more times you can stay in there and fight longer.
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This, of course, will change as we all start collecting that sweet sweet inferno gear.

Defensive skills will play less a roll and you will be able to slowly sub out defense for more offensive skills and passives.
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Snoo just remember,

with no CC you will not be able to stop anyone from hitting you. Come inferno there will be champion packs that may have up to 4 or 5 affixes to their names + all their minions.

If you come across a "waller, nightmare, extra strong, molten, frozen" boss. Your going to be in a lot of trouble. And yes, i think they will be able to hit you for more than 2500 per second in Inferno. Not individually, but as a whole. 5-10 melee's plus range all attacking you at once with no CC means you have no time to stand still. Your hitting and moving and this will effect your overall DPS.


What do you expect monks to have to do?...rotate Blind -> Serenity -> Sanctuary -> Tempest away when all three of them are down? I don't think so. Am I implying that the Monk should never have to run away in solo-play? With the right build, yes. There is really only one situation where I think a Monk or Barb for that matter will have to run away or deliberately stop attacking, and that's if a boss or super unique pack has some kind of overpowered thorns effect.

Look closely at the build I posted. There is CC. Melee monsters will be debuffed from CW and knocked back from LtK if need be. This is what will happen when I run into a melee pack too strong for me to handle; Debuff most if not all of them with CW, LtK them out of my face so they'll disperse, teleport to one and start killing it. This is a very reasonable expectation and it should work like a charm. I may even pick up CW(Tsunami) if I feel the monsters are recovering too quickly. Scattered ranged monsters will be pulled in via CS and killed quickly because their defense is lower. It's a really simple strategy. Kick melee out; pull ranged in; heal a full life bar every three seconds.

I've noticed a lot of people neglecting a fundamental principle in regards to CC on these forums. In regards to taking hits, melee monsters are more dangerous to ranged classes, and ranged monsters are more dangerous to melee classes. These kinds of games are built around this principle. Remember hell skeletal fire archers and obsidian knights? These monster packs were especially dangerous to encounter without ranged attacks. I swear I've seen too much theorycrafting defense based strictly on a melee versus melee scenario. When I think about what's most likely to kill me in Inferno, I think of incoming ranged attacks. Monks are melee classes. We had better be able to take some hits in any given combat scenario. If not then the game will be broken.
Edited by Snoo#1470 on 4/25/2012 2:13 PM PDT
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I hope your right Snoo.

By watching videos of Inferno play, it appears that you can't stay in a fight all that long otherwise your dead.

So this translates to hit and run tatics, or divide and conquer tatics (like you suggested), kiting, or complete CC tatics.

CC can be a slow effect, but they have said that Inferno mobs natural movement speed will all be increased as to add difficulty to this game mode. So all mobs will be moving faster in Inferno than they move in Hell. So slowing your targets down may only buy you a few seconds of space.

Thank god for knock back right.

But CC skills like Blind, Inner Sanc, and Serenity will allow you to not "kite" your enemy. They allow you to stay and fight without having to fall back on those tactics i mention before.

Hit and run, divide and conquer, slow and kite.

Not saying you can't be successful with these play styles, but you also wont be doing as much damage as you could be.

And as to your first question (^-^)

04/25/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Snoo
What do you expect monks to have to do?...rotate Blind -> Serenity -> Sanctuary -> Tempest away when all three of them are down?


I wouldn't go as far as to add Tempest rush in that order but yes. lol

My Inferno build revolves around this very premise that a rotation of complete CC will be the safest and quite possibly the easiest way to grind through Inferno. Wont be the fastest, that's for sure lol.

My wife and I both plan to have Blind and Inner Sanc in our Inferno build. One will have BoH the other Serenity. We can rotate our CC to the point that we will never take damage from any mob within range of Blind. This allows us to stay in and fight without the above tactics to worry about.

Plus if we DO get into trouble. We can fall back on kiting or hit and run or divide and conquer. while we wait on our CD's. Which btw is never. You can have a constant CC rotation going with 2 monks.

I am not saying this is what has to be. I am only planning ahead to play Inferno as defensively and safely as possible until proven otherwise.
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Snoo,

The reason I don't like your build for Inferno due to rely on runes' crit hit procs for faster IAS and extra spirit generating. The idea of standing on your ground punching and hoping for crit procs while burning MoH with Transcendence passive make me shudder. With no true CC, some small debuff, and a 2 second bubble won't save you in Inferno *based on the videos I've seen.*
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Snoo,

The reason I don't like your build for Inferno due to rely on runes' crit hit procs for faster IAS and extra spirit generating. The idea of standing on your ground punching and hoping for crit procs while burning MoH with Transcendence passive make me shudder. With no true CC, some small debuff, and a 2 second bubble won't save you in Inferno *based on the videos I've seen.*


well I notice I just linked the wrong build up there. It was supposed to be this. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQbfZ!ZYg!abbYYa

LtK(Vulture Claw Kick) instead of WotHF(Blazing Fists)

Without this change I would've basically had to stand my ground versus melee. Now that I posted the right build maybe I won't look like so much of an idiot x.x
Edited by Snoo#1470 on 4/25/2012 3:32 PM PDT
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I also think that a 3 generator build just sounds silly. You're wasting 2 skill slots (and presumably one passive) for buffs that really aren't worth it. Plus, you're totally gimped unless you can complete your combo. I don't understand why you'd want to use a skill for its 3s buff (excluding DR) when you could have another skill entirely. You're also fully dependant on a macro (unless you have super-reflexes) which to me seems a little lame in that not only does it take away from the fun of the game, but if it screws up you have to reset it.

Also, have you watched this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5_z_7fFQ4

It really doesn't seem like you're going to be able to stand around building combos. This isn't like D2 where you're going to have access to tons of duped items, you will most likely be under-geared for a long time.

IMO, the skills you're going to want to have are the ones that disengage you from combat. SSS, Blind, LTK (knockback), etc. At least, that's what the aforementioned video led me to believe.
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04/25/2012 11:16 AMPosted by Snoo
You can't. You become a one-trick pony that's extremely dull and you won't be able to deal with as many various scenarios
we dont really know this until we get the game amiright?
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04/25/2012 03:47 PMPosted by Cain
Also, have you watched this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5_z_7fFQ4


Don't let this video troll you. Notice how the developers/testers claim it's so hard, like you get one shot by mere AoE effects. Yet the footage they showcase involves Monks dying over 4-6 seconds without regenerating any health whatsoever. That's just bad form.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQUfb!ZYg!abbZYY
This 3-gen combo build offers over 2500 heals per second with a modest health pool of 7-8k. All I'd have to do is keep attacking. How many situations will arise you think where I'll get taken down through those kinds of heals? (assuming I don't totally under-gear the place). So you still think I'll die? I got CS to pull ranged nukers in, and LtK to kick hardass hitting melee out.


And then you run into a pack of Fanatasized, damage reflecting enemies that explode (dealing damage to you) upon death. If you end up being successful with a 3+ gen build in Inferno, then great. I just know that there are plenty of other "oh !@#$" buttons that I'll be using instead.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 4/25/2012 4:33 PM PDT
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWQUfb!ZYg!abbZYY
This 3-gen combo build offers over 2500 heals per second with a modest health pool of 7-8k. All I'd have to do is keep attacking. How many situations will arise you think where I'll get taken down through those kinds of heals? (assuming I don't totally under-gear the place). So you still think I'll die? I got CS to pull ranged nukers in, and LtK to kick hardass hitting melee out.


And then you run into a pack of Fanatasized, damage reflecting enemies that explode (dealing damage to you) upon death. If you end up being successful with a 3+ gen build in Inferno, then great. I just know that there are plenty of other "oh !@#$" buttons that I'll be using instead.


In last year's D3 Blizzcon footage (Q&A session I think), they discussed super-elites and their affixes. The developer specifically mentioned that we will not see super-elite monster packs that are just wildly overpowered. I think the example he used from D2 was Fanatism aura + Extra Strong + Extra Fast...something like this.

The explosion damage on death (like fire enchanted in D2) is easily avoidable if it's not bugged lol. At least in D2 this attribute only applied to the head monster, which had more health than anything else which means it would die last unless you focused it.
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04/25/2012 04:49 PMPosted by Snoo
The explosion damage on death (like fire enchanted in D2) is easily avoidable if it's not bugged lol. At least in D2 this attribute only applied to the head monster, which had more health than anything else which means it would die last unless you focused it.


In D3 all mobs in the champion pack have the affix.

In last year's D3 Blizzcon footage (Q&A session I think), they discussed super-elites and their affixes. The developer specifically mentioned that we will not see super-elite monster packs that are just wildly overpowered. I think the example he used from D2 was Fanatism aura + Extra Strong + Extra Fast...something like this.


This depends on what you meant by super elite champion packs. I can't find it right now but I do recall a blue recently talking about how Inferno mobs can have pretty nasty combinations of modifiers i.e. Horrify+extra strong+frosty. Quite frankly, any three modifiers sounds like bad news to me.

04/25/2012 03:30 PMPosted by Snoo
well I notice I just linked the wrong build up there. It was supposed to be this.


Lastly, I really think this build is pretty fatally flawed.
To begin, you have 3 generators. One is a gap closer, one gives a debuff/spirit on crits, and the last one gives spirit on crits and hits across small gaps. My question is, what is the point of Deadly Reach? It's completely redundant. Crippling Wave does everything it does, but better, and you don't need to hit mobs from a few yards away if you already have a gap closer (which I assume you would use first). Basically, you're using DR to gain an additional 8% damage for 3s when used in conjunction with Combination Strike. To me, this seems like a waste of an active, and a passive skill slot.

This leads to my second qualm. You implied that you were basically using LTK for CC knockback (situationally) and CS for a utility ranged-mob grab. If this is the case, what are you using as a spirit dump and perhaps more importantly, how can a build that focuses on generator combos effectively use spirit (since, like any resource, spirit unspent is spirit wasted)? If your build is so reliant on combos, I imagine that LTK and CS would both disrupt your flow of combat considerably (the KB on LTK can be huge). If you are using LTK as a spirit dump, you'll spend most of your time chasing scattered mobs which seems counter-productive to the build (since you said you plan on maxing DPS. Maxing DPS requires spending more time in combat, not chasing, and ideally using AoE). If you use CS as your spirit dump, I would just say that's silly since it does pathetic (100%) damage.

Moving on, why does your build which revolves around generator-combos put so much emphasis on spending spirit? Two of your generators generate spirit on crit and Transcendence heals you for spirit spent. Your build seems backwards to me. In order for a build to best utilize Transcendence and spirit on crit, you need to be spending as much spirit as possible. The best suited skill for this is FoT with Quickening, the rest should be spirit spenders, not generators. This again leads to a wasted passive slot (and generator rune slots).

Finally, your build has no CC/oh @#$% skill. LTK or Mantra of Healing with Boon of Protection does not count as adequate CC. Some champs have teleport, which makes KB ineffective, and for mobs that are hitting hard enough to kill you, I doubt a 2s, 15% of max-life bubble is going to stop them (which costs a lot). I guarantee some champ packs are going to wipe the floor with you if you're unable to stun/bubble/escape.

P.S. For some reason I'm unable to post with links to D3 builds/skills which is why the links are not included :P.
Edited by Rezrov#1730 on 4/25/2012 9:28 PM PDT
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My question is, what is the point of Deadly Reach? It's completely redundant.


In this particular build, the idea behind incorporating Deadly Reach(Strike from Beyond) is that it should be my highest spirit yielding combo generator. You were absolutely right when you saw this build as the kind of build that attempts to generate spirit extremely quickly and on a consistent level. Deadly Reach hits a lot of monsters even if they are somewhat spread, and 10 bonus spirit gained per crit trumps 5 bonus spirit gained per crit via Crippling Wave (naturally since CW debuffs enemies and is the slowest attacking generator).

what are you using as a spirit dump and perhaps more importantly, how can a build that focuses on generator combos effectively use spirit (since, like any resource, spirit unspent is spirit wasted)? If your build is so reliant on combos, I imagine that LTK and CS would both disrupt your flow of combat considerably (the KB on LTK can be huge).


I'm honestly surprised you didn't see what my spirit dump was. I thought it was obvious. It's MoH(Boon of Protection). I intend to have enough spirit to hit this ability every three seconds reliably as long as I continue attacking. I also intend to still have enough spirit left over to use CS or LtK whenever I need to and perhaps as well whenever it's only mildly beneficial (purely for CS's rune effect for example). With this strategy I will heal my entire health pool every three seconds on a consistent level, which should help me keep myself topped off in health very reliably (an equivalent average of almost 3000 health per second).

If you imagine this strategy panning out, you'll understand that it would be pretty difficult for enemies to kill me. Keeping in mind I already have 25% damage reduction to all enemies I touch, they would have to do be doing at least 5000 damage per second to completely catch me off guard to the point where I don't have enough time to even LtK everything off me and retreat.

As for CS and LtK disrupting my flow of combat. I don't see it that way. I'll definitely be using a macro with this build, and using either of these abilities will reset the macro. In the case of LtK this will be particularly favorable as LtK resets the combo sequence so that I can immediately teleport to a defenseless monster right after doing so.
Edited by Snoo#1470 on 4/25/2012 10:13 PM PDT
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04/23/2012 09:41 AMPosted by Dalrack
I don't see the benefit of having 3 spirit generators. Trying to combo generators correctly is tedious and it's way easier just to use one then spirit dump.

Just because something is tedious doesn't mean its not ideal either. The Monk because of it's combo system has possibly the most potential of all classes, but it will also most likely require the most effort to reach it.

As far as my opinion regarding the OP, because of the changes a few patches ago to EP and SW I'm leaning towards thinking a two generator build is more ideal. I think SW is more deserving of a skill slot now than it even was as a generator though. Also its important to note that the degree of difficulty now with SW's change, of 2 generators compared to 3 most likely isn't worth the effort or slight dps increase.

As far as I'm concerned the positives* of Thunderclap outweigh what Mangle or Foresight brings to the table, and Windforce Flurry is CLEARLY the best finisher Monk has. With that in mind, the clear choice is an easy to use and remember FoT > FoT > WothF combo. You can even save a skill slot if you were planning on taking Dashing Strike.

If you were to still opt for a 3 generator build over just 2, you'd have to do some figuring to find out whether 1 Mangle (143% wd/combo) per combo would be more beneficial than Foresight (164% wd/combo) effecting every strike of every combo. Keep in mind DR attacks faster than CW too. Simple math says no (as 164 > 143) though. So then your ideal rotation would be:

1: WothF - FoT - DR
2: FoT - DR - WothF

Where you would only use combo 1 when DR was not currently active. Combo 1 uses WothF first since from what video evidence we have, it appears that the 2nd attack (in combo terms) is much longer and is where the most time is spent (wasted).

*fastest attack speed of generators and teleport mechanism
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 4/26/2012 2:33 AM PDT
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@ blitzkrieg

I notice you don't seem to be very concerned with defensive skills. It looks like you wrote off Crippling Wave even though it significantly debuffs enemies. What's your best speculated viable build for entering Inferno look like?
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04/26/2012 02:26 AMPosted by Snoo
It looks like you wrote off Crippling Wave even though it significantly debuffs enemies.

The problem with CW in an ideal damage build (thats all I was posting with reference to) is that CW's debuff (from 3rd strike) would never be used because Windforce Flurry offers the most bang for your buck of all rune effects in terms of finishers.

As far as Inferno, not quite sure. Despite my claims that Monk has close to if not the most potential of all classes, I'll probably be playing it 2nd or 3rd (haven't decided between it and DH yet). I'm leaning towards something like this - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aUVXik!Zfg!acYbZc - with group play in mind, but I would probably have to tweak it a bit based on what classes my buddies would be playing and whether they'd be on a 2nd or 3rd char too or on their "main." You're right though, survivability is the biggest thing I would potentially have to address as BoH and 25% DR might not be enough.

Cue the oh so common phrase "we'll just have to wait and see"!
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 4/27/2012 6:02 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
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04/25/2012 09:50 AMPosted by Gerulfman
I've even considered going with 2 mantras so that I can get different buffs depending on my situation although the idea of doing this makes the min/maxxer in me go nuts.


I assume you already know you can only have one mantra active at a time correct?


Of course... it's the reason that having two of them makes me feel like I'm going crazy to even consider it. Being able to swap between Mantra of Evasion with Hard Target(keeping in mind that dodge works against ALL damaging effects... AoE, Dot ticks, EVERYTHING) or Mantra of Healing with any one of several of it's abilities and Mantra of Conviction with Overawe or Submission or Mantra of Retribution with several of it's runes seems to be a pretty amazing swap between damage avoidance/mitigation and increased damage.

Especially if(when my APS is high enough) I can afford to keep the "active" portion of the mantras active all the time. At about 3 APS, you should be able to generate over 50 spirit every three seconds easily... any passive regen you have will just be gravy at that point. Faster speeds just give more extra spirit for Serenity and/or Inner Sanc.

Mind you, this is with the idea of me using a shield and going for as much defense as I can get out of all my abilities. This is also only one idea I have for a build.

Still, the idea of taking 2 Mantras bugs me, even using them that way. But the idea of 'Mantra Dancing' seems kinda interesting to me. What it will come down to is how effectively my theories work out to be.

The idea COULD be garbage! ;P ~3 more weeks till we know!
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Are those buffs additive or do they get overwritten by the most recently applied buff?
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