Diablo® III

Dex, Dodge, and itemizing.

I wonder a bit the relationship at higher levels between DEX and dodge.

As we all know, DEX is a primary attribute for monks and demon hunters, it also provides a certain amount of dodge.

This contrasts with STR, which is a primary attribute for Barb, and provides a certain amount of armor, or with INT, which provides resistances.

The way armor and resistances work, is that they provide a rating, which scales in a logarithmic way, such that the stat never really becomes obsolete as monster damage increases. Likewise with dodge, points of DEX provide a rating which increases your % to dodge, presumably in a logarithmic way, such that you never achieve 100%, but that each point provides a similar amount of hit reduction.

I'm worried a bit about the spikiness that will characterize DHs and Monks. With a damage reduction stat such as STR, you smooth out the rate at which you lose health-- this is necessary in melee combat since you'll be getting hit a lot more often. Barbarians will also benefit from the extra damage provided by STR, so it's a good solution.

Stacking DEX however seems a bit more problematic. While the actual total damage reduction is more or less comparable between STR and DEX, the spikiness in the damage that you'll get as a monk or DH in the endgame if you stack DEX means that you'll be getting killed a lot more often if you get hit several times in a row.

90% dodge, and 90% damage reduction are not the same thing. with 90%damage reduction you are technically taking the same overall damage as the person with dodge, but it's spread out evenly. with 90% dodge, you can get instagibbed. In particular the monk playstyle seems extra vulnerable to this, being a melee class (being mitigated however by monk skills). In the monks case, he will have to spend a significant amount of itemization on things like STR in order to smooth the damage out, penalizing damage output relative to barbs.
Edited by Caradoc#1529 on 5/1/2012 3:49 PM PDT
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Isn't resistance a % too like Dex?
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05/01/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Maffia
Isn't resistance a % too like Dex?


It's a rating, like armor, but perhaps dodge works similarly to armor.
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edited
Edited by Caradoc#1529 on 5/1/2012 3:45 PM PDT
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From what we understand of the stats so far, you should always see benefit from having more of a stat.

As in, the more you stack, the closer you'll get to being complete (100% dodge, 100% resist, 100% mitigation).

Although you won't ever be able to actually reach perfect state, and the more points you have, the less each individual point is worth.

So far, with Dexterity, the first 100 points give you .1% chance to dodge each. So at 100 Dex you have a 10% chance to dodge. Every point after that gives you a .025% additional chance to dodge. So 200 dex would give you 12.5% dodge chance.

It's uncertain (as far as any information I've seen so far), if the rate for dex->dodge conversion stays the same after this point, or continues to offer less point return at higher values.

---

What then? does additional DEX become useless? Is there a cap on the amount of DEX one can reasonably want as a non-monk, non-DH character? Will monks/DHs be disadvantaged relative to BARBs, who will continue to see an (armor AND dmg) advantage to stacking STR?


It's a question of benefit, at all levels.

For Barbarians, points in Int and Dex will eventually be more valuable than points in Str for survival (even considering the added survival that the extra damage from more strength would provide).

The same is true for the other classes as well and this actually gives us an incredible diversity in survival builds.
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From what we understand of the stats so far, you should always see benefit from having more of a stat.

As in, the more you stack, the closer you'll get to being complete (100% dodge, 100% resist, 100% mitigation).

Although you won't ever be able to actually reach perfect state, and the more points you have, the less each individual point is worth.

So far, with Dexterity, the first 100 points give you .1% chance to dodge each. So at 100 Dex you have a 10% chance to dodge. Every point after that gives you a .025% additional chance to dodge. So 200 dex would give you 12.5% dodge chance.

It's uncertain (as far as any information I've seen so far), if the rate for dex->dodge conversion stays the same after this point, or continues to offer less point return at higher values.

---

What then? does additional DEX become useless? Is there a cap on the amount of DEX one can reasonably want as a non-monk, non-DH character? Will monks/DHs be disadvantaged relative to BARBs, who will continue to see an (armor AND dmg) advantage to stacking STR?


It's a question of benefit, at all levels.

For Barbarians, points in Int and Dex will eventually be more valuable than points in Str for survival (even considering the added survival that the extra damage from more strength would provide).

The same is true for the other classes as well and this actually gives us an incredible diversity in survival builds.


you're right, I realized this right after posting, and was in the midst of editing in another concern to the OP, so I just ended up rewriting it.
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05/01/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Caradoc
you're right, I realized this right after posting, and was in the midst of editing in another concern to the OP, so I just ended up rewriting it.


The spikiness is something that has me interested as well. It's actually a really cool question, because when you think about it, it also means monks and demon hunters will be better at surviving some events.

It's true that based on luck, a monk could die a whole lot faster than a barbarian.

Let's take an extreme example of a monk having 90% dodge and no armor , playing with a Barbarian that has 90% damage mitigation and no dodge. We'll say they both have 1000 hp.

So, a monster does 2 massive blows for 600 damage a piece.
Worse case happens, and the monk doesn't dodge either one. Monk is a splatter on the wall, while the Barbarian still has 88% health.

But on the other hand, what if a monster has a truly frightening ability that hits for 10000 damage.
The monk has a 90% chance of surviving, while the Barbarian is just dead.

I think it's safe to assume that we'll run into quite a few of those abilities through the course of D3 and all it's difficulty levels.

---

I don't think dodge based classes will be that extreme though, if nothing else than just the armor present on their gear.
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Right, exactly.

It's kind of like how lightning resist was the most important resist in d2 because of the possibility of getting instagibbed if the lightning damage rolls higher. I remember reading somwhere that that was one of the concern that went into the new resist system, so of course they're aware of it, but it seems to be a pretty core mechanic, so I wonder.

and gah, the hardcore characters.
Edited by Caradoc#1529 on 5/1/2012 5:23 PM PDT
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If you're truly worried about dodge vs %reduction, let me introduce you to my friend here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#!..X

DEX > STR.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 5/1/2012 5:28 PM PDT
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If you're truly worried about dodge vs %reduction, let me introduce you to my friend here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#!..X

DEX > STR.


hmmm, I wonder if that 'fixes' somewhat for a monk, I guess it becomes a balance thing in that case.

still open question for demon hunters though. Staying at range is important of course, but...
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I think you are right about DEX/Dodge being more spikey and less dependable than Armor and resistance.

But Dodge has another important trait: You don't get hit.

This means you will avoid ON HIT effects: like knock back and mana drains, CC, etc..

Armor and Resist don't do that.
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I think you are right about DEX/Dodge being more spikey and less dependable than Armor and resistance.

But Dodge has another important trait: You don't get hit.

This means you will avoid ON HIT effects: like knock back and mana drains, CC, etc..

Armor and Resist don't do that.


Armor is only more valuable against quicker hitting enemies, and enemies that cannot kill you in a single shot. There's a reason dodge was stacked for Patchwerk. In this game both will be important, and you can have both as a Monk.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 5/1/2012 5:47 PM PDT
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This is a question I raised just yesterday (though not on these forums). Since INT boosts resistances against ALL damage types, and armor mitigates incoming damage regardless of type, you're basically looking at which one will give you better DR when you're stacking points in (damage boosts aside).

You could say that Wizard/WD will be stacking INT for damage, so if they want extra DR, they will likely gain more by boosting STR. The opposite is true for Barb, who will be stacking STR for damage, but will likely gain better DR from boosting INT.

For Monk and DH, you'll be boosting Dex for damage, so if you want DR, you can boost whichever will give you a better DR boost (STR or INT).

But does a Barb/Wiz/WD want Dodge, or do they just want to stack DR? Does a Monk/DH want to stop boosting Dex (sacrificing damage AND increases in dodge) so that they can gain DR through INT and STR?

I think a Monk using Sieze the Initiative has 3 separate stats which can all boost DR, so arguably they could boost DR to huge levels at the expense of having 0 dodge.
Note also that while a Barb has skills that boost Dodge, DH has none, but does have a few damage reduction skills.
I'm leaning towards Dodge being just as important as DR in the late game, but I guess it's just speculation as to why.

The points raised about avoiding on-hit effects and having better survivability vs. slower, powerful attacks makes a lot of sense.
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I think a Monk using Sieze the Initiative has 3 separate stats which can all boost DR, so arguably they could boost DR to huge levels at the expense of having 0 dodge.


Read what Sieze does. If you aren't using DEX, you aren't getting anything out of it. DEX automatically has an effect on dodge, you just aren't getting +1% modifiers per point. So it's impossible to have 0 dodge and still get any decent DR from that passive.

At 1800 DEX you'll end up with +1800 armor (or whatever 1 STR gives, and it might not be that much DR in the end) and 52% dodge.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 5/1/2012 6:05 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Druid
3735
All stats provide mitigation to all forms of damage for all classes
This goes along with the way Vitality is universally valuable, so too are all 2ndary stats.

Int provide resistances, including "physical damage resistance"
each +10 = +1

after this, Clvl is used to DR it ; at lvl 13
0 = 0%
2 = 2.99%
3 = 4.41%
I assumed 1 = 1.5%, so we can already see it has a DR , probably to provide linear survival

Armor is on all gear, and mitigates all attacks, we will all have that, again probably with a DR, as well as lvl Vs lvl (never did write down teh value to check exactly)

Dodge% dodges all attacks... same thing. I would assume the equation takes Clvl into account for the discrete value as the dodge tooltip never mentioned "vs lvl x"

all of these sources function multiplicatively,
they will never additively asymptote to immunity and I wouldn't be surprised if a hard cap at 75% exists anyway

with that said Dodge will not be less valuable, the complete avoidance of an attack is different than attenuation
1) no crit/hit effects of the player/monster
2) no CC on you
etc..

we likely will see at best linear survival, so even stacking only main DPS stats will see no relative lose of power. If however the DR's are slightly harder, the influence on secondary stats will be very dynamic
Edited by zoid#1554 on 5/1/2012 6:24 PM PDT
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Read what Sieze does. If you aren't using DEX, you aren't getting anything out of it. DEX automatically has an effect on dodge, you just aren't getting +1% modifiers per point. So it's impossible to have 0 dodge and still get any decent DR from that passive.

At 1800 DEX you'll end up with +1800 armor (or whatever 1 STR gives, and it might not be that much in the end) and 52% dodge.


Sorry, for some reason I thought it was saying 100% of your Dex goes to increasing Armor INSTEAD of Dodge.
So that means Monks have no reason whatsoever to put points in Strength (assuming they take that passive)?

If you want to learn how damage reduction works with armor and resistances, read this.
http://armadagaming.com/showthread.php?459-Armor-Resistances-and-Effective-Health

It tells you exactly what you need to know.


I read that link (which is why I came to the conclusion that spreading points between INT and STR to maximise DR gained from Armor and Resistances made sense).

That's where I get to the point where I'm saying that classes that get +damage from STR or INT will be stacking those already, therefore gaining DR naturally. They'll have a simple decision to stack the other to boost DR.

But Classes that get +damage from Dex will not be gaining DR at such a rate, and will have to sacrifice damage and dodge for DR.

That isn't necessarily a problem, so long as dodge is just as important as DR. Otherwise you have Str and Int classes spreading their points between 3 stats (STR,INT,VIT) and Dex classes spreading between 4.

I guess given the stat differences at level 60 will likely be minor compared to the boosts that come from gear, it might all be moot. But that's where I'm coming from, at any rate.
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Read what Sieze does. If you aren't using DEX, you aren't getting anything out of it. DEX automatically has an effect on dodge, you just aren't getting +1% modifiers per point. So it's impossible to have 0 dodge and still get any decent DR from that passive.

At 1800 DEX you'll end up with +1800 armor (or whatever 1 STR gives, and it might not be that much in the end) and 52% dodge.


Sorry, for some reason I thought it was saying 100% of your Dex goes to increasing Armor INSTEAD of Dodge.
So that means Monks have no reason whatsoever to put points in Strength (assuming they take that passive)?

If you want to learn how damage reduction works with armor and resistances, read this.
http://armadagaming.com/showthread.php?459-Armor-Resistances-and-Effective-Health

It tells you exactly what you need to know.


I guess given the stat differences at level 60 will likely be minor compared to the boosts that come from gear, it might all be moot. But that's where I'm coming from, at any rate.


I agree with your points more or less completely

re: stat differences at 60, this is where itemization comes in. I don't think stat differences will be at all important. I guess I made this thread so we could talk exactly about this very point. I.e. do DH/Monk suffer an inherent itemization disadvantage in the late late game.
Edited by Caradoc#1529 on 5/1/2012 6:34 PM PDT
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