Diablo® III

Grenade Hatred, Bandolier Dump

Build
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#USYTVZ!gYe!aacZZZ

So the build concept came to me when I was thinking about the trade off low cost spenders and high cost spenders.

Low cost
Advantage:
Greater control, consistence damage, more time consuming
Disadvantage:
Less Burst, less time generating hatred

High cost being the mirrored opposite.

This build generates hatred very fast, the fastest possible I believe. It also dumps that hatred as fast as possible I believe.

Why bother?
Lets look at two different combos (assuming both use Steady Aim, Archery)

First lets look at an example of slower generation and spending combo.

Hungering Arrow with Puncturing Arrow & Elemental Arrow with Ball Lightning (with Vengeance passive)

Say you build hatred with Hungering Arrow, 3 hatred at an attack speed of 1.5. You generate 125 hatred (leaving out natural and equipment hatred generation) after 41 attacks at 1.5 speed. That takes 62.5 seconds. (yes I know natural and equipment regen makes this number ridiculously large but for this argument larger numbers create a clearer picture)

Then to spend that hatred you use Elemental Arrow which cost 10 hatred and is shot at an attack speed of 1.5. Spending 125 hatred at an attack speed of 1.5 takes 18.75 seconds using 120 attacks.

Now lets take a look at a fast generating and spending combo.

Grenades with Tinkerer & Spike Trap with Bandolier (With Grendaier passive)

Say you build hatred with Grenades, 8 hatred at an attack speed of 1.5. You generate 125 hatred (leaving out natural and equipment hatred generation) after 15.625 attacks at 1.5 speed. That takes 23.437 seconds. (Again, I know natural and equipment regen makes this number ridiculously large but for this argument larger numbers create a clearer picture)

Then to spend that hatred you use Spike Trap which cost 30 hatred and is done at an attack speed of 1.5 (I do not know if spike traps use weapon attack speed). Spending 125 hatred at an attack speed of 1.5 takes 6.25 seconds using 4 attacks.

The point!
The fast build has a better Coefficient Ratio. (For those of you that may not know what that is or how it effects applied mathematics here’s a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_variation)

Slow build
Generation time/spend time
Generation time 62.5 seconds/Spend time 18.75 seconds=3.333 coefficient over a 81.25 second time line.
3.33/81.25=0.041

Fast build
Generation time/spend time
Generation time 23.437 seconds/Spend time 6.25 seconds=3.749 coefficient over a 29.687 second time line.
3.749/29.687=0.126

Slow= 0.041
Fast= 0.126

THE QUESTION IS do those traps AOE which represent POSSIBLE damage, and the damage from the grenades AOE increase or decrease over all damage potential given the length of a standardized fight (All things taken into an average)

Now I know I compared very different builds and play styles but do you think these coefficients apply?

Thanks for putting up with the math and any feed back would be appreciated. Feel free to post any Generation/Spender combos you like, with or without the math.
Thanks
Edited by HellCrush#1644 on 5/1/2012 3:20 AM PDT
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I think having Grenade and Grenadier but not Cluster Arrow may not be a good idea. The synergy is too good to skip, in my opinion.
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Because your only real survivabilty move is caltrops, and none of your abilities require a ranged weapon, you might as well grab a shield with a high damage mace or hizzy. I like your build, though it might be hard to survive long without some other form of evasion.
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@ Snowbird.
Good point. I looked ovr the build and switched the bat pet with its 3 hatred regen to vault with rattle.
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I'm concerned about the AoE in this build. Nothing about Grenades, Spike Trap, or Impale really jump out at me as being viable AoE spells. 8 yards on Spike Trap is a pitifully small AoE, remember Vault in the beta? That went 35 yards. Cut that by over 4x and there is the radius of Spike Trap. Grenades also only hits 3 targets for 95% giving you a total of 285% damage unless the 3 grenades also have a radius that is consistently capable of hitting more than 1 target.

Also I don't know about the 6 trap rune for Spike Trap. Sure if you want to sit and prepare every fight you can spend 180 hatred setting up, but what is it going to do for you mid-fight? The upside is you can prepare for a really tough rare/elite mob before the fight starts. The downside is that once the fight starts, the rune becomes useless. It also takes 55 more hatred than you have to prepare in the first place meaning you're going to be sitting there waiting for your hatred to recover while you lay more. This means that using the rune to its advantages is going to significantly slow your clearing time as you'll spend most of the time waiting for your resources to regen and prepping for a fight instead of quickly moving from one combat to the next for a speed clear.
Edited by Threllen#1475 on 5/1/2012 4:47 PM PDT
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@LtShaft

I don't see it that way at all. Resources will regen very fast with runes and passives. Grenades can hit more than one target each as can spike traps. The idea is that you place all 4 traps that resources allow then via regen lay one more then use one grenade to lay another for a total of 6.

Once all those traps are down most mid sized packs will be dead. For large packs you place a caltrops and blast away with grenades which refills your hatred very very fast at 8 hatred each while doing aoe damage. Also people seem to think grenades can't be thrown far. They can. They land where you click as shown in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir47R92hHcI

Also there is the effect of killing of the closest mobs as they get rock with 275% wep damage repeatedly by up to six traps. ( 6*275%= damage equal to 16.5 aoe attacks. If they get close, vault through them and repeat (in my responce to snowbirds reply I took out the bat and replaces with vault, also since I do not use a bow I can use a very high damage sword or melee weapon to make the damage% value very high indeed.)

New build here
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#USYdVZ!gYb!aaYZZZ

I think people truely underestimate how fast hatred can be gained. This build is designed for the fastest hatred possible.
Edited by HellCrush#1644 on 5/1/2012 7:33 PM PDT
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Even with fast hatred regen, you're going to be waiting a decent amount of time to lay all six traps. If you start with maximum base hatred (125) and a slow, slow attack speed of 1.00 it will only take 3 seconds after your first trap to exhaust all hatred (4*30=120). In order to get the 180 hatred needed without running out, you'll have to get 55 hatred in 4 seconds (1 more second of lag time assuming you can place the 5th trap in sequence). That would constitute a regen rate of 55/4 or 13.75hps. Even if it only takes maybe 5 extra seconds of waiting around to do that (and this is of course assuming you start every fight with full hatred), that starts to add up over the long run.
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With prep in the runed punishment that seems reasonable to me. 5 Seconds of Aoe grenades isn't time wasted. If I used a slower hatred spender I would spend more time spending my hatred and in the same length time line generate less hate. The spike traps are out and on the board. They wont all trigger before I can lay another. Its not about putting out 6 traps in a row its about spending hatred fast and leaving more time for regen. Traps aren't cast off weapon speed. They are cast at 1.5 like all none weapon skills, unlike arrow skills.

Also since the attacks I will use aren't using a bow I can take the passive vengence rather then archery. This bumps up my hatred and disc regen and max total or hatred to 150 allowing me to drop 5 right off the bat.
Edited by HellCrush#1644 on 5/1/2012 7:37 PM PDT
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Thanks for the food for thought by the way, very appriciated
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I'm still not so sure on the AoE though. Sure Spike Traps and Grenades are very effective at taking out small/tightly packed mobs, but when you walk into a room with 20 guys it will take a decent amount of time to clear it out rather than blasting them down with 214% MS hitting everyone.
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So this build looks like more your style
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#bYZVQd!cYe!aaZZbb

Chain gang slows the front monsters to get the pack grouped then suppresion fire aoe's and build disc for punishment to regain hatred for impale or more suppresion fire.

This is actually the build I will try first.
Edited by HellCrush#1644 on 5/1/2012 8:12 PM PDT
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If you pop the 5 traps down around the room you can cover a large area which you could stand behind while you grenade. Once they approach and get blasted repeatedly you can vault and repeat.

I don't know its a play style thing. Its hard to say how it will work out untill release.

Thanks for challenging the idea LtShaft
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Np. Spike Trap can deal some very hefty damage and will certainly be a good ability for taking out challenging mobs because you can set up ahead of time. I just don't know if I'd set up for every mob I'm going to face. I'd probably use a diff rune with it, but Bandolier could work well, too. I like the faster paced gamestyle so I don't want to have to worry about strategically placing my traps and waiting for them to arm. I'd rather just walk in guns blazing :D

that is rather similar to the build I had in mind for an all-around build. Here is the exact one.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#aZdhQY!Yec!acbbac
Took HA over Entangling Shot simply because with Puncturing Arrow it is pretty good at both single target and limited AoE. Not the best at anything, but just balanced overall.
Fire at Will on Multishot to get lots of them off since I may not need the extra damage from Full Broadside against weaker mobs so I went for the efficient route.
FoK for those oh crap moments before I vault away although I may alternate using Ferret Companion during easier clears just to easily collect gold.
Edited by Threllen#1475 on 5/1/2012 8:51 PM PDT
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Ferret looks like it would be cool :)
Looks like we agree on standard builds. I wonder what off the wall stuff will end up working
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Ferret looks like it would be cool :)
Looks like we agree on standard builds. I wonder what off the wall stuff will end up working

I'm looking forward to trying out a Grenades/Cluster Arrow build just because of Bandolier. Also hopefully rocket builds will be pretty viable. Themed builds are fun.
I also want to try out Elemental Arrow. Not the best damage, but it's got some of the most interesting runes in the game. Lifesteal/slow/stun/fear, it's got a rune for everything!
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I think Spike trap has a lot of potential. Here's a build I'm going to try out first upon release:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#bShjkg!Vec!YYbbcY

Contrary to your build I wanted to focus more on laying the traps evenly roughly every 3 seconds or so, to optimise Numbing traps. Also I used Entangling shot to cluster mobs more efficiently. I love the way everyone's using the same skill but are able to spin out so many different variations of builds. I think the D3 skill system is really well done!

If I was to go for Spike trap hatred dump it might look something like this:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/demon-hunter#UPSdVl!gae!aacZZc

Added Cluster arrow for CC and synergy with Grenadier, RoV as the panic button and more CC, Vault for yet more CC, so that the Spike traps can activate more efficiently. Changed Spike trap's rune to Scatter, for that kind of hatred generation rate I really want to blow things up lol.
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I agree its great how the skills can but runed for so many different stratigies.
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As far as the first build listed I don't think numbing is really worth it. I would try to avoid any damage before lowing said damage.

Vault and caltrops are making it into almost all my builds these days. It's all theory untill launch :)
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89 Undead Priest
3790
I don't understand your analogy with coefficient ratio.

You're using the activity time ratio as std dev, and timeline as mean. Please explain?
Activity ratio / timeline, I feel this is some other concept than what you've linked to us.
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As far as the first build listed I don't think numbing is really worth it. I would try to avoid any damage before lowing said damage.

Vault and caltrops are making it into almost all my builds these days. It's all theory untill launch :)


I'm not giving up on Numbing just yet, I heard Inferno is a very, very unfriendly place. Numbing is one of the 4 defensive passive available for DH (Thrill of the hunt, Tactical advantage and Brooding. Lol @ Brooding, like U fo REAL?), and to me it's the most reliable one as it gives 100% chance to reduce 25% damage. Also your teammates cannot thank you more for that as well, especially Babas and monks. But do not be mistaken, I trust high mobility defense just as much, different play styles/builds requires different defense mechanisms.

But God I can't believe I just mentioned Brooding.
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