Diablo® III

Seven-Sided Strike

05/07/2012 11:05 AMPosted by G3pwood
Cooldowns are fantastic tools for promoting varied skill use, and allowing powerful effects to exist in a balanced way. That said, I do think 30 seconds is a bit long for SSS.


You would have varied skill use by the virtue of them not being boring. An ability doesn't have to be ultra powerful to be used. The whole 777% is just for style anyway, and it would have been much better even at 300% and on a 10s cooldown. Cooldowns are not good in a fast paced game, especially when almost EVERY skill has them. They are terrible and they were lifted right from WoW since that seems to be all Blizzard can work with anymore.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 5/7/2012 11:21 AM PDT
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You would have varied skill use by the virtue of them not being boring. An ability doesn't have to be ultra powerful to be used. The whole 777% is just for style anyway, and it would have been much better even at 300% and on a 10s cooldown. Cooldowns are not good in a fast paced game, especially when almost EVERY skill has them. They are terrible.


How so? And how does almost every skill have a cd? Sounds like a buncha BS to me.


Are you blind? I'm not just talking about the Monk.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 5/7/2012 11:22 AM PDT
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Cyclone Strike (Implosion) and Seven Sided Strike (Fulminating Onslaught). Pull everything into a nice tight ball and blow it up.

(Also, as a general comment, it's worth noting that Monks are probably the best initiator in the game purely because of Cyclone Strike.)


That is, if you want a horde of Inferno mobs all around you within melee range.

It might not be the best strategy to surround yourself with mobs that will have more HP than you and that can kill you if each of them just hit you once.

SSS will avoid for 1.5 seconds but then your trapped in a large pack of mobs.

Of course skills like Inner Sanc and blind can get you out of these death circles. Also Tempest Rush could be used to escape once you finished your combo of CS+SSS
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05/07/2012 11:19 AMPosted by Void
Cooldowns are fantastic tools for promoting varied skill use, and allowing powerful effects to exist in a balanced way. That said, I do think 30 seconds is a bit long for SSS.


You would have varied skill use by the virtue of them not being boring. An ability doesn't have to be ultra powerful to be used. The whole 777% is just for style anyway, and it would have been much better even at 300% and on a 10s cooldown. Cooldowns are not good in a fast paced game, especially when almost EVERY skill has them. They are terrible and they were lifted right from WoW since that seems to be all Blizzard can work with anymore.


This topic has been discussed to death elsewhere, and I don't want to derail the thread with a discussion about cooldowns. So rather than getting into any specifics that could turn into point-counterpoint, I'll just say that I disagree...strongly.
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if you pop mantra of conviction before seven sided strike it could be extremly deadly in pvp
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#b.YXTk!!c.cbca

I see SSS as a way to dive into a nasty pack and deal a ton of burst damage while remaining invulnerable. I think the key is that it fires all attacks off in ~1.5 seconds or so, so if you already have the bonus damages of Deadly Reach (18%) and Breath of Heaven (15%) up and running, then you charge in, Blind the enemy (30%), and refresh Mantra of Conviction (48% !!) then immediately use SSS. All 7 strikes should get the full benefit of the extra blind damage and the mantra refresh damage. I don't know exactly how to do the math but it should come out somewhere around 285% AoE Holy damage 7 times in ~1.5 seconds.


How do you know we'll have enough spirit to do all this in the small window you have for all that you listed to be in effect at once? I thought 150 was the maximum amount of spirit a monk could have without Exalted Soul.
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90 Undead Death Knight
0
05/07/2012 11:05 AMPosted by G3pwood
By "near the end of Beta," could you specify at what Character Level and in what Difficulty Setting? If it was in Normal, I don't expect any mitigation/armor/reduction - basically same behavior as Corpse Explosion in Diablo2. It's the higher difficulties where it started eating Nerf balls; still a good skill but much less valuable due to how long it took to kill the first monster.


Level 13, normal difficulty. That's actually the only possibility, since beta only went up to level 13 normal and EP unlocks at level 13.


Level 13 was the cap on the Open Beta Weekend; didn't know if the "true" Beta had gone higher level than that or not, thus the question. But, given the testing is limited to Open Beta Weekend information, I stand by my statements. In theory, it could be the most damaging skill in a Monk's repertoire come Hell & Inferno. In theory, it could also be nerfed to Hell & back (yes, pun intended) by the time we see mob traits at that difficulty.
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05/07/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Bonesplicer
Level 13 was the cap on the Open Beta Weekend; didn't know if the "true" Beta had gone higher level than that or not, thus the question. But, given the testing is limited to Open Beta Weekend


I actually avoided Open Beta Weekend since it was so crowded. The closed public beta had the same level limit, though, and that's what I was testing in. I can only assume that the internal beta was the whole game, but yeah, there's not much info out there from that.
Edited by G3pwood#1383 on 5/7/2012 9:13 PM PDT
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I kind of find it odd that no one has brought up Earthquake yet. It suffers from the same problems, and yet a lot of people (myself included) love it to death as an opening attack. The damage (2000% DPS over 8 seconds with 120 CD) is pitiful compared to Bash (1200% DPS total over 8 seconds, 18,000% over the CD of Earthquake). The difference is that burst damage potential is important too - with SSS going off in moments, generator DPS can't keep up to get that first damage out (to set up EP, perhaps). And that doesn't count in the utility of the invuln, or the strength of the rune effects (AoE damage, massive stun, gap closer), which help it be a skill that creates an improvement without replacing a skill or skill category entirely.

And as far as the bigger resource cost crowd, the devs want a full bulb to be reasonable and accessible. If they controlled big ticket skills with resources, they'd either have to violate their design principles and make it difficult to use abilities with costs, or else allow players to game the system (Frenzy Barb with quake constantly going, WD with unlimited minions, another teleport fiasco).
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05/07/2012 09:43 PMPosted by Hellpyre
I kind of find it odd that no one has brought up Earthquake yet. It suffers from the same problems, and yet a lot of people (myself included) love it to death as an opening attack.


I didn't bring it up specificially, but it was one of the main abilities that came to mind (along with the Ancients). When I end up playing my Barbarian, neither of those skills will be used by me. Burst damage is great, but I want abilities that I can use within a relatively short time span from one another. Not holding them because I'm too afraid that it will be on cooldown when I need a "big nuke now!" to clear out something.

I also honestly don't like the way Earthquake works anyway. It's good for enemies that you can keep within it's area of effect, but you also have to essentially remain locked inside it as well.

It seems to me more like a Whirlwind "helper" ability than anything else.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 5/7/2012 11:04 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
05/07/2012 11:00 PMPosted by Void
I kind of find it odd that no one has brought up Earthquake yet. It suffers from the same problems, and yet a lot of people (myself included) love it to death as an opening attack.


I didn't bring it up specificially, but it was one of the main abilities that came to mind (along with the Ancients). When I end up playing my Barbarian, neither of those skills will be used by me. Burst damage is great, but I want abilities that I can use within a relatively short time span from one another. Not holding them because I'm too afraid that it will be on cooldown when I need a "big nuke now!" to clear out something.

I also honestly don't like the way Earthquake works anyway. It's good for enemies that you can keep within it's area of effect, but you also have to essentially remain locked inside it as well.

It seems to me more like a Whirlwind "helper" ability than anything else.


I like the idea of Earthquake, but the CD on it is WAAAY too long. If we had access to more abilities simultaneously(like 8 or 9 of them), it would totally be an awesome skill. I really think that a lot of these long CD skills will have their CD's greatly reduced. No matter how awesome a skill is 2 minutes is too long a CD in a game like this... my only caveat to this is if we have access to % cooldown reduction items, similar to in League of Legends and some other games, they might be ok. If these type of item affixes are available - even if they're skill specific - it might not be too bad. Yes, I know we have a passive that does this... but it's too small an amount of CD reduction by itself to be worthwhile, IMHO. If there's item affixes to stack with it, it could be pretty good.

But, yeah, I'd prefer to have a skill I can use on demand(or at least on less than a 15 or 20 second CD) so that I'm not afraid to use it. With really long CD's, I end up not using skills like this except in emergency, 'OH CRUD!' situations. I'd just personally prefer skills I can use all the time.

Maybe that's just me, though.
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85 Goblin Priest
0
05/07/2012 11:27 PMPosted by Zanathos
we have a passive that does this... but it's too small an amount of CD reduction by itself to be worthwhile


Yea, I agree with this. The passive is great... if you're going to run a build with several CDs on your used skills. Otherwise, I think there's better passives for almost all builds.

I like SSS, will use it until I find it doesn't work for my play style come inferno. And because I plan on running Transcendence its a free 3100 heal prior to the invulnerability. I like EP too, but reserving judgement until I can test it within my play style. Which will probably change. ;)
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I kind of find it odd that no one has brought up Earthquake yet. It suffers from the same problems, and yet a lot of people (myself included) love it to death as an opening attack. The damage (2000% DPS over 8 seconds with 120 CD) is pitiful compared to Bash (1200% DPS total over 8 seconds, 18,000% over the CD of Earthquake). The difference is that burst damage potential is important too - with SSS going off in moments, generator DPS can't keep up to get that first damage out (to set up EP, perhaps). And that doesn't count in the utility of the invuln, or the strength of the rune effects (AoE damage, massive stun, gap closer), which help it be a skill that creates an improvement without replacing a skill or skill category entirely.


Earthquake can be cast and then you can continue attacking at least that what it looks like to me. So you have 2000% dmg over 8 seconds plus whatever damage your other gens and spenders can do in that time. I think 120 seconds is too long of a cooldown for this kind of game but earthquake adds a lot of damage in an AoE and can be a fire and forget.

For the monk, we get 777% weapon damage in 1-1.5 seconds which is a decent burst on 1 mob but for every other mob in the area we do much less damage than we would using a AoE gen, yet we still lose a good amount of spirit and now have a 30 second cooldown. I agree defensively using it as an escape or a invul moment to dodge a powerful enemy attack is useful but 1 second every 30 seconds with such lackluster damage is not very useful.....

I just think that the monk as a class that is supposedly only restricted by resources and not cooldowns should not have such a long cooldown on an ability that isnt very powerful to begin with.

I hope blizz has looked at this since it is by far one of the coolest abilities we have and i just want it to be useful come harder difficulties.
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90 Undead Death Knight
0


I also honestly don't like the way Earthquake works anyway. It's good for enemies that you can keep within it's area of effect, but you also have to essentially remain locked inside it as well.

It seems to me more like a Whirlwind "helper" ability than anything else.


Whirlwind Helper Makes a Great Meal!!

All lol's aside though, you're onto something with that idea:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/barbarian#hT!!ca

(Don't recommend actually seating them on those keys, but it demonstrates the point.)
I call dibs on the name "Disco Inferno Barb" for that match-up.
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Great discussion, guys.

Since you've also been talking about Exploding Palm, and I don't want to start another thread with another noobish inquiry, I was hoping you could answer my question.

Deadly Reach with the rune that grants Foresight says that it increases the damage of all attacks by 18% for 30 seconds. Exploding Palm--within 3 seconds of 220% physical bleeding damage-- inflicts 30% of the monster's life in damage to surrounding mobs (if the monster dies while under the bleed).

My question is would the Foresight Deadly Reach "18% damage buff" apply to the 30% of the monster's life part or the 220% physical bleed damage part (or both)?
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Great discussion, guys.

Since you've also been talking about Exploding Palm, and I don't want to start another thread with another noobish inquiry, I was hoping you could answer my question.

Deadly Reach with the rune that grants Foresight says that it increases the damage of all attacks by 18% for 30 seconds. Exploding Palm--within 3 seconds of 220% physical bleeding damage-- inflicts 30% of the monster's life in damage to surrounding mobs (if the monster dies while under the bleed).

My question is would the Foresight Deadly Reach "18% damage buff" apply to the 30% of the monster's life part or the 220% physical bleed damage part (or both)?


Nobody knows yet, but it's most likely that any damage buffs (unless it's a specific affix on gear) will only apply to the weapon based damage from skills. So in the case of EP, it would just be the dot. A debuff though, that doesn't actually enhance your damage as much as it increases the damage enemies take would almost certainly have an effect. I.e. the first rune for EP would probably work, although it would be too hard on spirit to make any practical use out of it.
Edited by Nevermore#1419 on 5/8/2012 10:11 PM PDT
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Thanks, Void.

So in addition to the first EP rune, Mantra of Conviction would also theoretically increase the damage an exploding enemy does to mobs around him, no?

I definitely have to keep Spirit costs in mind when I try to wrap my head around skill synergy.

Of course, we don't know for sure until the game comes out as you suggest, but there seems to be layers of depth to the game that are pretty exciting.
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