Diablo® III

Manaless signature spell at level 54? why?

Posts: 80
I was looking over the spells for the witchdoctor again, and I couldn't help to ask is why do you unlock a rune which makes the signature spell "plague of toads" manaless at level 54?

I already thought plague of toads was an odd spell to have as a signature spell as it's really the only one which you can't generate resource while casting it for quite some time. But the question is, why is the level so high? Honestly, I figured when you've reached a level like 54, the mana cost for a signature spell should be irrelevant, as you would making plenty of it back anyways. I would accept if this was a level 30-35 rune, but I honestly think that it's a waste of a rune at the current level.

None of the other classes have a skill like this, in fact, most classes the signature spells are all resource generators or cost nothing. I can see it's use in having the ray of frost spell for the wizard manaless, but it that secondary skill, not a signature skill. I'm just confused why you would need a signature spell, which are basically built around being a skill you can use while you're out of mana, would need such a rune. On top of that, it's counter productive by unlocking it at such a high level in which the significance of having such a rune is even worse.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/class/witch-doctor/active/plague-of-toads
Edited by U4gnplagued#1993 on 5/7/2012 3:56 PM PDT
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Posts: 232
Wizard and Witch doctor are the only classes that don't generate their resource using skills. It regenerates for free. The Wizard has signature spells, to keep casting when mana is out. The Witch Doctor doesn't. If you don't want to auto attack when you are out of mana, toad affinity is a good choice. I plan to use it in a couple builds.
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Posts: 80
Yea, I forgot that they don't technically call them signature spells.

But the point is, even though there is a mana cost for the witchdoctor's primary skills, they typically consume less mana than you can regenerate, meaning you get a net gain of mana instead of a loss, so having a rune which makes these spells manaless does not amount to much.

Furthermore, I believe that they reduced to mana cost to plague toads to either 18-20 mana, meaning it is even more insignificant to have this rune. Currently, at a low level you will just barely lose mana, instead of regenerating it.
Edited by U4gnplagued#1993 on 5/7/2012 4:23 PM PDT
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Posts: 13
Notice that dart and firebomb cost 10 mana, spiders cost 5 and frogs cost 34. I'm betting making it free can be worth it. Just because it's in the same category doesn't mean it's effectively free.
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Posts: 80
Even if this spell has a considerably high mana cost for a primary, you forget the fact that this rune is only unlocked at level 54.

Since the mana cost of spells effectively stay the same throughout the game, the usefulness of manaless casting come with diminishing returns. A spell that costed 50 mana at level 1 is a lot more expensive than at level 60 since you gain a larger mana pool and regeneration.

At such a high level, it might not even be worthwhile to have a primary skill, as you'll be able to cast more mana-heavy spells at a reasonable rate. It is more beneficial to have a primary skill that regains mana than one which does not effect your mana at all. Most of your damage will be delt out from your mana-heavy spells, not your mana-free ones.
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Posts: 232
Try comparing it to other mana-less spells for other characters with high level runes. Does it measure up? If it buys you the ability to spirit-barrage or locust-swarm that much more frequently how much does that add to your build?

This is the problem with theory-crafting. You won't know until you try it. It's easy to say it seems worthless on paper, but until you try all the runes to see what actually works best you just won't know.
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Furthermore, I believe that they reduced to mana cost to plague toads to either 18-20 mana,


Was it significantly higher in the past? Perhaps the rune needs to be looked at again with a possible change, since it's initial purpose was already addressed in a patch.
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Furthermore, I believe that they reduced to mana cost to plague toads to either 18-20 mana,


Was it significantly higher in the past? Perhaps the rune needs to be looked at again with a possible change, since it's initial purpose was already addressed in a patch.


During the beta, I was quite excited when I unlocked Plague of Toads. Slapped it on left click and went to town. Suddenly noticed that my mana wasn't regenerating while casting it. Didn't want to remove firebats at the time, so I took it off my skill bar.

The rune definitely needs to be addressed, or moved to earlier in the tree.
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Posts: 34
With pierce the veil, mana is at a premium, esp if i'm wanting to spam locusts/spirit barrage/other high mana high dps spell, mana will be at an absolute premium.

If i run into a fight and drop grasp, SH, 4 haunts and pop off a few locust swarms, i've already used 1764 mana and basically be out of mana.

With free toads I get 130% weapon damage for free while my DOTs do their thing. If pierce the veil is adding 20% and soul harvest is adding 40% i'm sitting at a FREE spammable 190% weapon damage.

How is that possibly a bad thing?

answer: It's not, it's freaking awesome. Instead of using an almost free spell i'm using a completely free, decent damage spell while haunt is returning 10 mps, and my other mana regen is kicking. Then after I regen some mana I can either shoot out some more locusts or some spirit barrage and then go back to spamming toads.
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Posts: 34
Toads being completely free is a great mana management tool.

It allows you to be more agressive with your runes/passives, or beef up your survivability by being able to worry less about mana shortages.
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Also mana regen never goes up it stays at 20 per second unless your gear gives you more. Keep in mind that toads does a great deal of damage 130% X3 toads per cast, it seems the devs want this spell to cancel out your mana regen or cut a huge chunk out of it anyways.

Do some math if you spam Pdarts or firebomb for 30 seconds at 2 casts a second it will cost you 600 mana (10mana per cast), PoT will cost you 2040 mana in the same 30 seconds (34 per cast). Now if your mana regen is 40 per second you will gain only 1200 mana in 30 seconds and find out quickly how no mana cost on PoT can help a lot.
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90 Orc Warlock
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Posts: 985
05/07/2012 04:22 PMPosted by BodySnatcher
they typically consume less mana than you can regenerate, meaning you get a net gain of mana instead of a loss, so having a rune which makes these spells manaless does not amount to much.


This.

Toads is already spammable, you have to click like a madman to see a reduction in mana, and even then it's slow.

I consider toad afinity to be a little underpowered, i would much prefer a rune to make the toads seek enemies, even if they did less damage.

edit:in reference to the above post my memory may be slightly off, i didnt use it as a main skill for long and i did find a little bit of regen gear, but i stand by my opinion that toad affinity isnt all that great.
Edited by ALittleHazey#1268 on 5/7/2012 10:47 PM PDT
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Posts: 34
05/07/2012 10:44 PMPosted by Dusternis
they typically consume less mana than you can regenerate, meaning you get a net gain of mana instead of a loss, so having a rune which makes these spells manaless does not amount to much.


This.

Toads is already spammable, you have to click like a madman to see a reduction in mana, and even then it's slow.


You can hold down the mouse button to continuously cast a spell that does not have a cooldown.


I consider toad afinity to be a little underpowered, i would much prefer a rune to make the toads seek enemies, even if they did less damage.

edit:in reference to the above post my memory may be slightly off, i didnt use it as a main skill for long and i did find a little bit of regen gear, but i stand by my opinion that toad affinity isnt all that great.


If I have a fast weapon and i'm casting toads at 1.5 casts per second, It works out to a net loss of 31 m/s with the base mana regeneration of 20 m/s.

With pierce the veil passive it jumps to 66 m/s with a net loss of 46 m/s. That is not negligible at all.

If you're OOM and can't cast you are dead. Having a mana neutral cast is nice. But a free, FREE, spell that does solid dps is a boon to a mana heavy build.

Toad affinity makes more sense as a later spell because you'll be using more mana than you are early on.
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Posts: 80
i used frogs alot during beta they are very op when used right and even spamming them then with haunt was awesome and yes IAS spamming frogs is bout the most fun i had lol.
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