Diablo® III

Blood Funnel Vs.Bloodlust

Posts: 593
Alright, bloodfunnel Runed Whirlwind and Bloodlust Runed Rend.

These two are somewhat similiar in purpose, as these two specific runes make each of them a close range AOE that can also provide some extra health Leech; Functionally, Rend deals more damage per rage (10.5% weapon damage per Rage, compared to WW providing 6.875% weapon damage per rage burned), but is a dot instead of instant damage. Additionally, WW allows you to move while casting it, though this also ties up time where you could be using a fury builder instead.
Rend's damage is guarenteed, but scales on the damage you deal; WW only occurs when you critically strike, but scales with your health, rather than the damage you deal.

So, for the function of a Health leech specific Rage dump, which do you think comes out on top?
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Posts: 460
Rend is not a rage dump unless you are generating rage very slowly, but for the purposes of health regeneration you will return a much greater ammount.

To provide some numbers, let's assume you have weapon damage of 3200 and health of 9k (both of these are very low values just fyi) and a crit rating of 30%

Rend will inflict 70% damage per second healing 9% (or 6.3% weapon damage) increase this ammount by 15% for crit damage (probably off a bit, but meh) and you get 231 health per second per target.

Whirlwind provides 1% health back on critical hits. So a 30% chance will lead to a .3% return on health. At 9k health, this will return 27 health per second per target(based on attack speed). In order to compete with Rend you would need 10 times this value in some combination of health or critical hit chance and weaponspeed.

To put it bluntly if you want to regenerate health while using whirlwind use the bloodthirst passive - bloodfunnel is just terrible.
Edited by CdrRogdan#1818 on 5/9/2012 2:35 PM PDT
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Posts: 593
By rage dump i was meaning a rage spender; I tend to subconsciously refer to any spender as a "Dump" simply because its how one can utilize their rage.

Thanks for the math! Really crystalizes things.
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Posts: 37
CdrRogdan, that seems like a lot of assumptions in that math to come to those conclusions. I highly doubt we're going to have our base damage anywhere near a third of our total health, which skews your results in favor of Rend a lot. Do you have any evidence Rend can crit? Also, as far as I know, Whirlwind was last shown to have a constant speed based on whether you're using a one-handed or two-handed weapon. It's definitely faster than weapon speed and possibly up to 3 attacks per second with one-handers. Blood Lust may still end up being better than Blood Funnel in most situations, but I believe it will be a lot closer than you think.
Edited by Zwoopboing#1114 on 5/10/2012 2:02 PM PDT
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Posts: 460
I'm uncertain if Rend can crit, although that isn't a big portion of it's damage anyway, so at most you could shave off 30 damage from that assumption.

The value on damage is actually much more concervative than the value on health. Consider that the value of vitality is the same as the value for strength on item affixes (it actually appears to be less but whatever). Base hp at level 60 is 1500. Raising hp by 1000 will take 100 vitality. If the character listed is capable of raising health to 9000 that means he obtained 800 vitality, but let's assume that he has +50% max health total from items. That changes this value to 533. Arguably that character could also raise his strength by 533 multiplying his damage by 6.33. A white, 1st level 60 tier, two-handed axe deals roughly 400 damage per second. A 25% damage increase from an affix on a magic weapon of the same calibur is very possible. The total damage would be around 3600 or so. I actually scaled it down more than necessary.

As far as whirlwind hitting multiple times per second, I was not aware it's attack speed was static. Althought your next statement about it attacking faster with one handed weapons is contradictory.. In any case even if it was faster than weapon speed, it does not change that some combination of attack speed (whether static or adjusted), critical chance and max health needs to be 10x higher to compete.
Edited by CdrRogdan#1818 on 5/10/2012 3:58 PM PDT
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Posts: 37
I feel like you're underestimating health, not overestimating damage, but I'm not sure what your reference for lvl 60 base stats and itemization levels is; I haven't looked outside of the official game guide to see any finalized gear if there is any. You could get near/over 1k health in the beta with very little stamina gear, and damage barely approached 10% of that. I'm pretty sure there's been footage of a moderately geared level 60 with more than 20k health, but I don't have that on hand, and I don't know how much has changed since that build. However, the Bradygames guide apparently shows a 30k+ damage attack from an inferno boss, and the monk can heal almost 10k with just one rune. I'm estimating 25k will achievable.

As for Whirlwind, I meant that it changes speed depending on if you're using one or two-handed weapons, but doesn't scale with actual attack speed of the weapon. Before the tooltip was reworded more vaguely, it used to show "attacks every .3 seconds" when dual-wielding or using a one-handed weapon of any speed, and "attacks every .4 seconds" when equipping a two-handed weapon of any speed. (not 100% sure on those numbers, but fairly certain)

Assuming I'm right, Whirlwind - Blood Funnel with 20k health and 30% crit using a one-handed weapon will heal ~198 per second. That's a lot closer than ten times weaker than Rend - Blood Lust, and still, that's competing with a two-handed weapon before armor.

I could be totally wrong, but I just haven't come across any of the evidence you have for your max HP numbers. I'd be glad to be corrected.
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05/10/2012 03:56 PMPosted by CdrRogdan
I'm uncertain if Rend can crit
It can, see my test results: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4063008459#7
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Posts: 460
Thanks Arkatar that clears things up a bit. Certainly makes it more randomized and less possible to use for averaging damage that way. Although I suppose it makes the ability more spammable than it would initially appear, since you could keep reapplying it in the hopes of obtaining a crit.

I was using this along with the weapons posted on the main page:
http://www.d3inferno.com/affixes/ItemAffixes.html
The actual health I think you can enter inferno with is 26000 and the damage is 8400.

Note that my statement about increasing the attack speed and health by 10x the listed value is still accurate (though easier to do if the base attack rate is more than triple), as your own numbers multiply the value by 7.4

Granted, if the attack rate is .3 per second it does change the ammount of healing that blood funnel can do, and it's not as terrible as I initially believed, but rend will still typically return more health. It should also be noted that +crit chance is not free though. There is an opportunity cost in either skills or gear in acquiring 30%.
Edited by CdrRogdan#1818 on 5/10/2012 9:27 PM PDT
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Posts: 29
Dont know if this was mentioned, but bloodfunnel gives you 1% of your max health not of damage dealt, not too shabby.
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