Diablo® III

1H vs 2H weapon analysis and solution

85 Worgen Warrior
0
It kind of irks me that as a wizard I have to use a two-handed weapon with a slow speed in order to not use up all my arcane power and do decent damage. This is because the skills are not normalized in the slightest; they're all based on weapon damage, and cost a fixed amount of AP.

Here are some examples using equivalent weapons of the 1H and 2H variety. Both have an overall 100 DPS, but the 1H has an attack speed of 1.4 and the 2H has an attack speed of 0.9.

Ray of Frost (20 AP, 215%)
1H: Uses 28 AP per second, does 153.57 damage per hit, total DPS of 215.
2H: Uses 18 AP per second, does 238.89 damage per hit, total DPS of 215.

Arcane Orb (35 AP, 175%)
1H: Uses 49 AP per second, does 125.00 damage per hit, total DPS of 175.
2H: Uses 32 AP per second, does 194.44 damage per hit, total DPS of 175.

The same DPS over smaller hits, sure, but it uses about 65% more AP per second. In this respect 1H weapons just drain your AP faster, which results in lower overall DPS. Cooldown skills are a little different in the respect that though they might activate faster using 1H weapons, they have the same reuse period and AP cost as their 2H equals.

Wave of Force (25 AP, 200%)
1H: Uses 25 AP per 15 seconds, does 142.86 damage per hit.
2H: Uses 25 AP per 15 seconds, does 222.22 damage per hit.

So as long as you can stomach the 65% longer activation time, you do that much more damage for the AP you use.

Solution: Normalize AP costs for skills WITHOUT cooldowns, but normalize damage for skills WITH cooldowns. Keep in mind, though, a perfect 100% normalization would result in an unbalance favoring faster weapons using +damage enchants, but a slightly skewed normalization would result in 1H weapons doing more DPS with no-cooldown skills balanced by a slightly higher AP usage per second, and 2H weapons doing larger bursts for skills with cooldowns, offset by the longer activation times.

Thoughts?
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The problem with the logic in these "2h is better" posts is that they don't take signature spells into account. Yes, your damage PER AP is better with a 2h, but that doesn't mean your DPS will be better.

With the faster cast time of a 1h, you'll be able to get more signature spells off in between those arcane orbs. You really need to add those in to your math before deciding which is better.
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1H FTW man
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85 Worgen Warrior
0
Except your signature spells will do the same DPS using the 1H weapon as they do the 2H weapon, and there really aren't many situations you would rather use signature spells, which do less damage than all the other spells you have.

Magic Missile (0 AP, 110%)
1H: 0 AP per second, 78.57 damage per hit, 110 DPS.
2H: 0 AP per second, 122.22 damage per hit, 110 DPS.

Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be blasting away with a 175 DPS AOE than sitting there plugging a single mob with 110 DPS just because I needed to regenerate my AP.
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I'm not saying signatures are better with a 1h vs. a 2h, I'm saying that when you're emptying your AP pool with a 1h, you get free signature casts because you go through the AP faster.
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85 Worgen Warrior
0
So you'd rather burn through your AP faster rather than slower? Or is it you rather do less damage than more? If it were just a question of draining more AP to get more DPS, that'd be a viable solution, but you're draining MORE AP to get the SAME DPS. No brainer.
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If there's a wizard offhand item being worn, then damage is boosted. Also, some offhand items for wizards add to maximum AP, as well as stats (ie: INT).

Have you made adjustments for boosts from reasonably available offhand gear, in your calculations? Have you incorporated gems into your calculations? Finally, do your calculations change when sets / high quality rares / legendary offhand items are incorporated?
Edited by candlelight#1376 on 5/19/2012 3:33 PM PDT
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05/19/2012 03:15 PMPosted by Osius
So you'd rather burn through your AP faster rather than slower?


Yep. Because then I get to cast more spells in between those orbs that you don't get.
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If there's a wizard offhand item being worn, then damage is boosted. Also, some offhand items for wizards add to maximum AP, as well as stats (ie: INT).

Have you made adjustments for boosts from reasonably available offhand gear, in your calculations? Have you incorporated gems into your calculations? Finally, do your calculations change when sets / high quality rares / legendary offhand items are incorporated?


Furthermore, are equivalent gear sets of 1h + offhand /// 2h itemized the same? What does an equally itemized 2h look like stat-wise compared to a 1h + offhand combo?

If the 1h has 80 dps and gets 20 more from his offhand, and the 2h has 100, it would seem that the 2h is better in all situations. Your AP isnt wasted from a fast attack.

However, if an equally itemized 1h has 100 dps in addition to the offhanded item, that would be the clear winner.

Yes these are all arbitrary numbers, and god knows that no two items in diablo are the same, but these are things to consider.
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05/19/2012 03:55 PMPosted by Hobbs
So you'd rather burn through your AP faster rather than slower?


Yep. Because then I get to cast more spells in between those orbs that you don't get.


Sorry, but you gotta sit down and learn some math..

What you're saying is completely illogical.
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Found an advantage for faster attack speed(1H): on hit effects like Paralysis, Arcane Dynamo, ...
for example look at this build that exploits passive&active crit increases together with Critical mass (critical hit -> 1 sec cooldown reduction):
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/wizard#WVYXSO!agf!YYYZcZ
A thread discussing this build's advantages: https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5152408254
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100 Night Elf Priest
16755
You completely neglected the offensive or defensive boosts of off-hands. Shields are massive defensive upgrades.
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If there's a wizard offhand item being worn, then damage is boosted. Also, some offhand items for wizards add to maximum AP, as well as stats (ie: INT).

Have you made adjustments for boosts from reasonably available offhand gear, in your calculations? Have you incorporated gems into your calculations? Finally, do your calculations change when sets / high quality rares / legendary offhand items are incorporated?


Furthermore, are equivalent gear sets of 1h + offhand /// 2h itemized the same? What does an equally itemized 2h look like stat-wise compared to a 1h + offhand combo?

If the 1h has 80 dps and gets 20 more from his offhand, and the 2h has 100, it would seem that the 2h is better in all situations. Your AP isnt wasted from a fast attack.

However, if an equally itemized 1h has 100 dps in addition to the offhanded item, that would be the clear winner.

Yes these are all arbitrary numbers, and god knows that no two items in diablo are the same, but these are things to consider.


Agreed. I myself am Wearing a 534dps 1h with a 28-224dmg OH with 88+int on EACH item. I have Yet to see a 2h with 200+ int on it.
Edited by Noobism#1999 on 5/19/2012 5:27 PM PDT
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I found a combination of a wand and a book that gives me a greater DPS than with my old two-handed hammer, so I salvaged the hammer, and regretted it immediately. The wand combination burns my AP extremely quickly, while with the hammer, I could sit there and spam disintegrate for minutes at a time, or trash a huge group with arcane orb and still have AP left over.
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05/19/2012 05:09 PMPosted by Kaneda


Yep. Because then I get to cast more spells in between those orbs that you don't get.


Sorry, but you gotta sit down and learn some math..

What you're saying is completely illogical.


yea some people argue just for the sake of arguing.
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Hobbs point is that a fast caster, while out of AP, isn't going to just sit there. They will cast a handful of free signature spells too.

that may mean for a player capable of quickly alternating, and staying right on top of the action may come out just fine. So Cast 3 ArcOrbs, and then a couple Magic Missiles during recharge may make up the damage difference a 2H gets with casting his 3 AO slower. Depending on play style that may even add some more control..say with an chain lightning (instead of MM) to catch stragglers, or fire deeper into a crowd at summoners while the AO smash the front ranks. The 3 faster (weaker) AO, plus a a CL (or two) might compete with the 3 or 4 AO a slow caster launches.

Throw in some AP on Crit effects, or other desirable procs, and they may be able to mitigate the AP inefficiency of faster weapons.

It takes more work, in finding a good 1H, and an offhand to help boost stats, and a player who really varies their skill use, but it could be just as viable. And arguably more fun for some than just sweeping a beam through a crowd continuously.

But yes, in general a 2H is a quicker more "direct" approach.
Edited by Saiph#1977 on 5/19/2012 11:29 PM PDT
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The problem with the logic in these "2h is better" posts is that they don't take signature spells into account. Yes, your damage PER AP is better with a 2h, but that doesn't mean your DPS will be better.

With the faster cast time of a 1h, you'll be able to get more signature spells off in between those arcane orbs. You really need to add those in to your math before deciding which is better.


problem is, signature spells suck !@# and almost every wizard has a base regen of 22 per second, meaning you spam arcane orbs 65% of the time on a free-cast situation, and maybe 80-100% of the time when kiting.
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The problem with the logic in these "2h is better" posts is that they don't take signature spells into account. Yes, your damage PER AP is better with a 2h, but that doesn't mean your DPS will be better.

With the faster cast time of a 1h, you'll be able to get more signature spells off in between those arcane orbs. You really need to add those in to your math before deciding which is better.


problem is, signature spells suck !@# and almost every wizard has a base regen of 22 per second, meaning you spam arcane orbs 65% of the time on a free-cast situation, and maybe 80-100% of the time when kiting.


I assume you don't run with arcane dynamo then? Shock pulse(piercing orb) is actually a rather good spell which I don't see many posting about here, instead its all magic missiles. Well Wizards, time to adjust!

I've had roughly 27k crits with that spell at 15k dps, with it also being part AoE that builds your arcane dynamo up at a fairly decent pace.

Also, with arcane dynamo, it seems that because disintegrate/ray of frost are chanelled that the 75% seems to effect the full duration. It doesn't happen all the time so I'm not entirely sure of the conditions required but it does happen a fair amount. That easily beats an AD charged AO

Signature spells play a massive part when you play this sort of build, and going from 2h to 1h I'd honestly say I prefer the 1h version for this. What the person does say above is correct, 1h might run out of AP faster but the DPS loss is probably gained back (if not more when we talk about builds like AD) in using signature spels in the downtime.

Point is, you don't "need" to play 2h and 2h doesn't result in higher damage, people seem to forget factoring in that you can fire off signature spells in the downtime period of a 1h, thats the problem when you base damage fully on theorycraft, especially on a game like Diablo, you don't realy get time to figure out amazing rotations for optimal DPS.
Edited by ohnoz#2773 on 5/19/2012 11:28 PM PDT
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60 Human Death Knight
450
It really depends on your build and playstyle.

If you don't rely on signature spells, and get no other benefit from the more frequent attacks, then you're better off with the slowest possible attacks. A 2 Hander with no attack speed bonuses is ideal because it gives you the most damage per AP.

However, there are other concerns. Survivability is higher using a shield, which forces you to use a one-handed weapon. Builds based around Critical Mass want more frequent attacks so they have more frequent crits to lower cooldowns.

There's no one true answer to 2 hander versus 1 hander. Each is best for a different build or playstyle.
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The problem with the logic in these "2h is better" posts is that they don't take signature spells into account. Yes, your damage PER AP is better with a 2h, but that doesn't mean your DPS will be better.

With the faster cast time of a 1h, you'll be able to get more signature spells off in between those arcane orbs. You really need to add those in to your math before deciding which is better.


Most Wizard builds don't have a signature spell tho due to the amount of movement needed on bosses/rares/champion packs.
Edited by Zheryn#2895 on 5/20/2012 12:11 AM PDT
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