Diablo® III

Diminishing Returns on Armor = Myth (graphs)

Great post, love the TLDR for quick synopses. Rated up.
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90 Human Priest
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Posts: 309
The entire premise is flawed; you're basing it on the assumption that armor on level 61+ vs level 60 works the same as level 60 vs level 60. This was never revealed, and is provably false.

Thus the entire calculation is meaningless; the DR as stated doesn't DO anything. The mobs in Act 4 Inferno ignore what you claim your DR is, and just bash your face in.
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Great work! I had considered doing something like this myself, but you've saved me the trouble.

Note that to get an overall effective hp, you need to also factor in dodge, as in the following equation:

dodge = % to dodge
armor = % DR from armor
resists = % DR from resists

HP / [(1 - dodge)*(1 - armor)*(1 - resists)] = effective HP

The entire premise is flawed; you're basing it on the assumption that armor on level 61+ vs level 60 works the same as level 60 vs level 60. This was never revealed, and is provably false


This is an issue, the % DR shown in game is not accurate for monsters over your level. If we knew the level of the inferno mobs, we could adjust the values.
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85 Orc Shaman
0
Posts: 320
What I just read is this. Armor [and resistances] have diminishing returns.

I also think that you've misinterpreted what diminishing returns means. It means that as you gain more of one stat [lets say armor] that it becomes less effective when compared to other stats that give damage reduction. What you are assuming is this. Diminishing returns make armor less effective over-all. Which, like you have proven, isn't true.

This essentially means that the way to get the most total damage reduction is to stack your damage reduction stats equally.
Edited by Cherubael#1771 on 5/22/2012 3:32 PM PDT
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Posts: 158
The entire premise is flawed; you're basing it on the assumption that armor on level 61+ vs level 60 works the same as level 60 vs level 60. This was never revealed, and is provably false.

Thus the entire calculation is meaningless; the DR as stated doesn't DO anything. The mobs in Act 4 Inferno ignore what you claim your DR is, and just bash your face in.


The DR formula is Armor / (Armor + 50*mLvl) so an increase in the mLvl will only increase the constant in the bottom. Meaning that %DR will go down if the monster is of a higher level but the actual curve remains the same.

So you're right and you're wrong. Most of this work is for level 60 mobs because I don't know what level the inferno mobs are. Fighting monsters of a higher level will reduce your DR but not vitality, changing their relative worth but not the relationship between the two. Also, unless inferno mobs are like level 80, the relative values for lvl 60 mobs should be somewhat close to the inferno mobs, and worth looking at.

Note that the flash application I put up it allows you to change the monster level. So you can see the armor value vs vitality ratio accurately for higher level mobs, as well as correctly vet gear choices. What level are inferno mobs? I have no clue... but if you know, you can choose correctly.

Also, my post is mostly to explain how armor and damage reduction work in general and to dispel a myth about diminishing returns. Not so much to help people make all their little gear choices. You still have to think about things like dodge, offense, and ... health globes? lol.

Great work! I had considered doing something like this myself, but you've saved me the trouble.

Note that to get an overall effective hp, you need to also factor in dodge, as in the following equation:

dodge = % to dodge
armor = % DR from armor
resists = % DR from resists

HP / [(1 - dodge)*(1 - armor)*(1 - resists)] = effective HP

The entire premise is flawed; you're basing it on the assumption that armor on level 61+ vs level 60 works the same as level 60 vs level 60. This was never revealed, and is provably false


This is an issue, the % DR shown in game is not accurate for monsters over your level. If we knew the level of the inferno mobs, we could adjust the values.


I don't want to touch dodge because it's damage avoidance instead of damage mitigation. It's difficult to factor the two together, or rather it's difficult to factor them together and then actually explain that to people so they can understand it. It's also difficult to factor because there may be situations where dodging is impossible, perhaps while stunned? Damage mitigation is always active and thus it is a lot easier to quantify its usefulness and explain it to people.

What I just read is this. Armor [and resistances] have diminishing returns.

I also think that you've misinterpreted what diminishing returns means. It means that as you gain more of one stat [lets say armor] that it becomes less effective when compared to other stats that give damage reduction. What you are assuming is this. Diminishing returns make armor less effective over-all. Which, like you have proven, isn't true.

This essentially means that the way to get the most total damage reduction is to stack your damage reduction stats equally.


I suppose this is a small point of contention, but in my experience when people say that armor has diminishing returns they mean to convey that adding additional armor is less effective than it was previously. Which, like you said, isn't true. There is some interplay between vitality, resistance, and armor though. Like I've shown with a number of spreadsheets, there is a way to balance your stats to get the most bang for your buck. The trick is knowing what "equally" means. Obviously the relationship isn't 1:1:1 all the way up.

I think we're in agreement.
Edited by BeNegative#1844 on 5/22/2012 3:59 PM PDT
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85 Orc Shaman
0
Posts: 320
When I said equally I meant something... else. Other than literally equally. I could have said it better.

What I mean is. If you have 50% DR from Armor, then it is probably best to get 50% DR from Resistances as well before you purposefully get more armor.
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I don't want to touch dodge because it's damage avoidance instead of damage mitigation. It's difficult to factor the two together, or rather it's difficult to factor them together and then actually explain that to people so they can understand it. It's also difficult to factor because there may be situations where dodging is impossible, perhaps while stunned? Damage mitigation is always active and thus it is a lot easier to quantify its usefulness and explain it to people.


I agree that it's no longer a perfect representation of your effective health, but rather a statistical average. However, I think it's a mistake not to consider it when making gear choices, since at some point dodge will be more valuable to your character than more resists or armor.

I suspect that dodge does work while stunned, and in all cases where resists and armor work, for balance reasons. Were this not the case, dex would be an inherently worse stat than strength or int, which I find unlikely given how perfectly the rest of this lines up.
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Posts: 158
When I said equally I meant something... else. Other than literally equally. I could have said it better.

What I mean is. If you have 50% DR from Armor, then it is probably best to get 50% DR from Resistances as well before you purposefully get more armor.


That's not necessarily true and it's where a lot of people get into trouble. You may have a ton of armor and no resistances, so you think that a piece with only a few resistances is better for you than another piece with a ton of armor. Granted the relative value of the armor has gone down because of the disparity, but the armor piece may very well still be the better choice depending on exactly how much armor and res you already have and how much is on the piece. But yes, definitely the value of resistance relative to armor goes up as armor goes up. And vice versa.

I would normally say that it depends on itemization, but Diablo 3 is a different beast because everything is random stats. You may find a piece with a crap load of armor because the item wasn't prefabricated like wow items or uniques in Diablo 2. So simply saying "If I have a lot of armor I will start putting on more resistance gear" isn't going to cut it.
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90 Human Priest
7500
Posts: 309
Now that is indeed interesting. Can you give us some basic numbers assuming a 2 level gap (to Act 2) and a 3 level gap (to Act 3)?

What are our 'effective' DRs assuming 8000 armor and 800 resist with a 1 mlevel gap, and what is it with a 2 mlevel gap? This may allow us to figure out what breakpoints are required to successfully farm act 3 mobs.

*edit

I guess it's not reasonable to assume each mob is only 1 level higher than the previous, they could easily be 5 or 10 levels higher with each subsequent act, which would explain the harsh DR penalties we're receiving as we move from one to the next.
Edited by HuntingX#1197 on 5/22/2012 4:29 PM PDT
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excellent post. I can tell you spent some time with this.
:)
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90 Human Paladin
9185
Posts: 19
Theres obviously DR in relation to damage reduction but linear in relation to EH, this is the same thing as in wow, this is nothing new, this was news back in wow vanilla I guess.

If you had armor pen in this game you'd get the same effect as in WoW, the last 99 to 100% armor pen netting you way more damage than the first 5%.
Edited by Gustavo#1885 on 5/22/2012 4:34 PM PDT
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So, basically, Wizards with >3000 armor and a lot of intelligence can pretty much outtank a barb, cause they have much higher damage reduction? XD

Even with barb -30% dmg, wizards have pretty good defense :(
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Great job!
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Posts: 359
So, basically, Wizards with >3000 armor and a lot of intelligence can pretty much outtank a barb, cause they have much higher damage reduction? XD


So basically, Barbarians with >3000 resistances and a lot of Strength can pretty much outtank a wizard because they have much higher damage reduction?
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Only you cant get more then 1500 resist. And intelligence gives wizards attack and better armor, compared to barb strength. By stacking resistance as a barb you lose DPS.

A wizard on the other hand loses nothing.
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85 Orc Death Knight
9785
Posts: 1,186
05/22/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Gutrachop
Too late in the night/early in the morning for me to be readin russian novel.


In Soviet Russia, Novel reads you.
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Looks nice for tanking barbs. Thanks alot, will give me some direction on item choices.
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.
Edited by Haragan#6831 on 12/13/2012 6:34 PM PST
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very nice post, thanks! :)
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