Diablo® III

Diminishing Returns on Armor = Myth (graphs)

Posts: 5
TBD, you're freakin' awesome. Great post.
Reply Quote
Since this is in the barbarian forums I'd love to see the math include Nerves of Steel. It seems like an obvious choice to take Nerves of Steel so we can double dip from vitality to get armor. This would eliminate nearly any decision between vitality or armor in favor of vitality nearly EVERY time. Basically you'd increase the EHP value of vitality by your armor:vitality ratio?

This might be helpful information:

I did a little testing and it seemed to me that Tough as Nails 25% armor and War Cry 20% armor did not benefit from one another, they both come from your base armor.
If your base armor is 1000 and you apply Tough as Nails to end up at 1250 armor, Your War cry does not increase 1250 by 20% to end up at 1500, it simply adds 20% of your base armor to arrive at 1450.
In other words they are additive so your benefit is +45% total rather than applying one then applying the other.

But check this out.

According to my testing, Nerves of Steel seemed to be applied before Tough as Nails + War Cry.

If a player has 1000 armor and 100 vitality then gets Nerves of Steel, they arrive at 1100 armor.
Then War Cry adds 20% of 1100 rather than 20% of 1000.
This is pretty big! So now we're guaranteed that the armor from Nerves of Steel is treated as armor from gear, and included in subsequent +%armor skills, sweet!

Plus I'm guessing War Cry with +50% resistance is going to be better than the extra 20% armor rune in almost all situations? Simply because resistance is so much more effective at increasing EHP and 50% is a much larger increase than 20%
Edited by Gus#1234 on 5/24/2012 9:14 AM PDT
Reply Quote
05/24/2012 03:06 AMPosted by Prophaniti
Why are people including Dodge into EH equations? Dodge does nothing for EH, as EH only ever applies if you actually get hit and take damage. A Dodged hit does 0 damage, and thus means exactly 0 to EH.

You can, under the assumption you are taking many hits at a time, it can be averaged out. If you are against a single monster that hits like a truck, dodge is unreliable due to randomness. Then you can't.
Reply Quote
While EHP approach is promising, it is not that good in reality.
The main concern is the shield - it completely changes the ratios because it blocks flat damage.
Reply Quote
People who have played games like this for a long time are familiar with this idea of armor not actually giving diminishing returns. It's hard to explain to people who aren't knowledgeable about the math, but it's great to try to teach people.

Dodge is pretty easy to generalize because it's 100% mitigation at [dodge%] chance. When you take out the random aspect of it and just look at it from a long-term effect your total Ehealth turns into:
EH = (30*vit + (1/(50*Mlvl))*armor)/(1-[dodge%])

Obviously it's less reliable, but that's how you would factor it in.

I have a few more questions though:
1) Is block before or after damage has been reduced?
2) Does armor really protect against all damage? Elemental included?
3) Has anyone done tests on Life on Hit in Inferno? I'd really like to know those numbers.
4) Using the formula "DR from Armor = Armor / (Armor+(50*mLvl))" someone could keep the same armor and try to find similar mobs from Inferno act 1 to Inferno act 2 to see how much the mLevel increases. Alternatively one could do a series of tests just in Inferno act 2 with different armor values and reverse engineer the mLevel from that. This isn't really a question, more of a suggestion/request for anyone with access and time.

Finally I can post here! I'm glad to get in on some of this math.

Oh, and Gus' findings that Nerves of Steel seemed to be applied before Tough as Nails + War Cry are going to throw all kinds of wrenches into these calculations.
Edited by barrtender#1951 on 5/24/2012 10:21 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Reserved

The moral of the story is this: If you want to try some kind of leeching build using bloodthirst and +life on hit mods, you should definitely stack armor and resistances over vitality to make your heals more effective. Also, I admit I don't have much knowledge of other classes but I assume they have some heals that are static or based on damage dealt. So anyone of any class trying to make a leech build should focus on res/armor over vitality.


This is the way I've been setting up my barb, using +heal on hit items along with frenzy for maximum attacks. My stats look like :

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8523/screenshot002ulw.jpg

It works for tanking act 2 stuff straight up, though I need slightly higher stats (I would say 1000 armor and 75-100 resists) to make tanking champion packs as smooth as it works in Act 1. I've been forgoing vitality for the simple reason that my health returns are on static amounts (550 per hit from my weapon) and would rather make every point of health returned as valuable as possible (including 5% from revenge, though your above proves that total health pool is irrelevant to revenge heals).

I would also LOVE if you included resists on your flash app!
Edited by Endeavour#1528 on 5/24/2012 10:28 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 535
[quote]Reserved
I've been forgoing vitality for the simple reason that my health returns are on static amounts (550 per hit from my weapon) and would rather make every point of health returned as valuable as possible (including 5% from revenge, though your above proves that total health pool is irrelevant to revenge heals).

I would also LOVE if you included resists on your flash app!

I noticed that "low" HP and was a little concerned.
It's almost another approach of the wizard with low hp and flat healing numbers.
Im liking this different approach.
Shame though we still need to forgo str in many cases.
Reply Quote

I have a few more questions though:
1) Is block before or after damage has been reduced?
2) Does armor really protect against all damage? Elemental included?
3) Has anyone done tests on Life on Hit in Inferno? I'd really like to know those numbers.
4) Using the formula "DR from Armor = Armor / (Armor+(50*mLvl))" someone could keep the same armor and try to find similar mobs from Inferno act 1 to Inferno act 2 to see how much the mLevel increases. Alternatively one could do a series of tests just in Inferno act 2 with different armor values and reverse engineer the mLevel from that. This isn't really a question, more of a suggestion/request for anyone with access and time.

Finally I can post here! I'm glad to get in on some of this math.

Oh, and Gus' findings that Nerves of Steel seemed to be applied before Tough as Nails + War Cry are going to throw all kinds of wrenches into these calculations.

I think I can answer some one the questions:

1) Block is calculated after all dmg reduction.
The order of calculation I believe goes like this (it makes most sense):
i) Dodge chance -- if successful, no dmg
ii) Block chance --> if successful, apply all reduction first before blocking
iii) Armor, Resist, reduction from skills like Ignore pain, weakening shout, relentless etc
(the order doesn't matter cos you get the same result if you multiply in any order)

2) Armor and ALL resist blocks both physical and magic sources

3) Not sure, but some guy earlier today had a thread testing on it. He claims that different skills bash/frenzy/wW etc has different life on hit coefficient. I remember WW had around 0.4 or something.

4) This dmg reduction versus lvl 65 mobs formula is irrelevant for us Barbs, dunno if it is for other characters though. The reason is every one of us barbs are facing the same mobs and we are applied the same dmg reduction. If we are to make comparisons which barb is better at tanking Act 2, we should only be interested in his gear for his EHP and his skills set because they differ.
Edited by Ironfisto#1459 on 5/24/2012 10:40 AM PDT
Reply Quote
[quote]Reserved
I've been forgoing vitality for the simple reason that my health returns are on static amounts (550 per hit from my weapon) and would rather make every point of health returned as valuable as possible (including 5% from revenge, though your above proves that total health pool is irrelevant to revenge heals).

I would also LOVE if you included resists on your flash app!

I noticed that "low" HP and was a little concerned.
It's almost another approach of the wizard with low hp and flat healing numbers.
Im liking this different approach.
Shame though we still need to forgo str in many cases.


It isn't really a concern though because of how much each point of health is worth; my damage reduction is around 98.5% (vs lvl 60 monsters of course). Additional points of vitality are worth massive amounts however!
Reply Quote
Posts: 406
Please press request sticky
Reply Quote
Since this is in the barbarian forums I'd love to see the math include Nerves of Steel. It seems like an obvious choice to take Nerves of Steel so we can double dip from vitality to get armor. This would eliminate nearly any decision between vitality or armor in favor of vitality nearly EVERY time. Basically you'd increase the EHP value of vitality by your armor:vitality ratio?

This might be helpful information:

I did a little testing and it seemed to me that Tough as Nails 25% armor and War Cry 20% armor did not benefit from one another, they both come from your base armor.
If your base armor is 1000 and you apply Tough as Nails to end up at 1250 armor, Your War cry does not increase 1250 by 20% to end up at 1500, it simply adds 20% of your base armor to arrive at 1450.
In other words they are additive so your benefit is +45% total rather than applying one then applying the other.

But check this out.

According to my testing, Nerves of Steel seemed to be applied before Tough as Nails + War Cry.

If a player has 1000 armor and 100 vitality then gets Nerves of Steel, they arrive at 1100 armor.
Then War Cry adds 20% of 1100 rather than 20% of 1000.
This is pretty big! So now we're guaranteed that the armor from Nerves of Steel is treated as armor from gear, and included in subsequent +%armor skills, sweet!

Plus I'm guessing War Cry with +50% resistance is going to be better than the extra 20% armor rune in almost all situations? Simply because resistance is so much more effective at increasing EHP and 50% is a much larger increase than 20%


hmm nice find on NoS.
I find it superior to Thorn of Nails for my case cos I leap alot. I noticed that leap +300% bonus only takes into account your raw armor (NoS is considered raw, and possibly ToN). I had WC 20%, ToN 25% and the enchantress buff 15% (they should add additively = 60%) .

Also, there is simple method to find your EHP and ive shown in my thread (almost getting buried haha) for you to make quick calculations when switching items. I haven't done an indepth analysis on it yet, the ratio are just rough calculations:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5149621780
This is to TBD too, maybe you can gain some insights from there.
Reply Quote
Posts: 267
Very nice, it is hard to follow for sure but after reading it someone can definitely gear up better and know they are still improving when they think they are not :)
Reply Quote
Posts: 39
I got a little stuck behind all of the math, but ideally resists are what you want to shoot for, right? It seems like they would be with how they synergize with that war cry rune and how they work with armor's mitigation.
Reply Quote
I'm pretty baffled by damage in inferno atm. I dont think I have great gear, but I've managed to get 32k health, 6k armor and 350-400 in all resistances on my barb.

This should make me fairly tanky, but I still find myself getting killed in a matter of seconds on normal packs unless I blow my oh !@#$ buttons. And this is in a solo game. This cant be how it's supposed to work out.
Reply Quote
I applaud your work, thank you very much for sharing this with us. I'm playing a Demon Hunter, yet this is extremely useful information for any dedicated player!
Reply Quote
How does Physical Resistance work with Damage reduction with Armor? I no good at math like you =X
Reply Quote
Armor over vitality and the life-leeching thing. Totally makes sense. Great post!
Reply Quote
Must admit I didn't read through all of the pages so I don't know whether or not this has already been addressed (or if it's just elsewhere in the forums and I just haven't been able to find it), but for a barb at what point should dex become a viable stat over str or vit?

EDIT: Also what about taking into account the Nerves of Steel passive?
Edited by cab#1524 on 5/24/2012 8:28 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 158
05/24/2012 07:17 PMPosted by HAUMPH
How does Physical Resistance work with Damage reduction with Armor? I no good at math like you =X


Well, you seem to be under the impression that armor only affects damage from physical sources. But, in Diablo 3 armor actually reduces damage taken from all sources, not just physical. So Armor + Physical Res would reduce physical damage like this:

Actual Damage = Damage * (1-Armor DR%) * (1-Physical Resistance DR%)

For example, if Damage is 100 and Armor DR is 50% and Physical Res DR is 25%, you get:

100 * (1 - 0.5) * (1-0.25)
100 * 0.5 * 0.75
50 * 0.75
Actual Damage = 37.5

Hope that answers your question.

Must admit I didn't read through all of the pages so I don't know whether or not this has already been addressed (or if it's just elsewhere in the forums and I just haven't been able to find it), but for a barb at what point should dex become a viable stat over str or vit?

EDIT: Also what about taking into account the Nerves of Steel passive?


Okay so two questions. First of all, Dex is pretty sweet up to 100. I would say just as a rule of thumb always try to have at least 100 dex because up to that point it adds 0.1% dodge per point, which sounds low but 100 dex nets you 10% dodge which is (sorta) 10% straight damage mitigation off the top. Pretty sweet for only 100 dex right? To get another 10% dodge though you need 400 more dex (20% dodge at 500 dex). So after 100 I would probably suggest sticking with mitigation stats. I'm sure someone on here is dying to give you an ear full for even suggesting rng stuff, lol.

Second, I didn't bother working with passives because my point isn't to show everyone exactly what their gear choice should be. Just to prove my point about armor scaling properly. But since you ask, just change the armor on a piece of gear you want to compare so that it's correct. Like so:

Piece 1 has 10 vit and 100 armor.

  • With nerves of steel that's 110 armor (armor = armor + vit).
  • With tough as nails that's 125 armor (armor = armor * 1.25).
  • With war cry that's 120 armor (armor = armor *1.2).
  • With war cry and the +20% armor rune that's 140 armor (armor = armor * 1.4).
  • With all four of those that's 181 armor (Armor = (Armor + Vit) * (1 + 0.25 + 0.4) )
    Note that the bonuses of tough as nails and war cry get added together before being applied to armor.


One last final thing. I've said this a few times but I will keep saying it. Don't make all your gear choices based on these numbers, it's just a rough guide about how to do it. There are a number of things that are not understood about the game as well as factors not taken into consideration (such as passive abilities, block, dodge, etc). A lot of people have suggested adding those things in and trying to make it more legit. I can do that, in fact I could just release a spreadsheet right now that would help people make decisions. But I'm a software developer and I think (know) that's a !@#$ way of doing things. People don't want to work with some annoying spreadsheet. And it's not a very good conveyor of information. So when I get a little free time I will try to put together something more comprehensive that includes passives and other attributes. As always, if anyone has some information on damage formulas or anything please let me know and I'll happily include it.
Edited by BeNegative#1844 on 5/25/2012 9:02 AM PDT
Reply Quote

******************TLDNR***************
Every 1000 points of Armor increases your effective health by 1/3 of your max health (with no other DR sources), regardless of how many points you do or do not have in Armor already. The same goes for resistances. Here is a link to a google doc with graphs showing effective health and DR as armor increases:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ag4BdvmMzezudEszY2pQUUczTXdhY3A0UE05ZGkzX0E&output=html


This is not correct.

If you got 0 armor, 1000 armor will increase your effective health by 1/3 since you take only 75% instead of 100% of damage.

When you got let's say 5000 armor, you take 1-5000/(5000+3000) = 37.5% damage
When you add 1000 armor to reach 6000 armor, you take 1-6000/(6000+3000) = 33.3% damage

-> 33.3/37.5 = 0,889

1/0,889 = 1,125 -> effective health is only increased by 12.5% and not by 1/3

The higher your base armor is, the less effect you will get from a plain added amount of armor.

However: if you add a percent of armor (tough as nails for example), the more armor you got, the more effective it gets.
Edited by andreasels#2315 on 5/24/2012 10:58 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]