Diablo® III

Diminishing Returns on Armor = Myth (graphs)

Does anyone have a graph for Vitality Vs Resistance ? I think that is quite more important as they are much more correlated in item generation than vit/armor.
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Gentlemen: http://rubensayshi.github.com/d3-ehp-calculator/
Edited by Gus#1234 on 5/25/2012 8:00 AM PDT
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Posts: 158

******************TLDNR***************
Every 1000 points of Armor increases your effective health by 1/3 of your max health (with no other DR sources), regardless of how many points you do or do not have in Armor already. The same goes for resistances. Here is a link to a google doc with graphs showing effective health and DR as armor increases:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ag4BdvmMzezudEszY2pQUUczTXdhY3A0UE05ZGkzX0E&output=html


This is not correct.

If you got 0 armor, 1000 armor will increase your effective health by 1/3 since you take only 75% instead of 100% of damage.

When you got let's say 5000 armor, you take 1-5000/(5000+3000) = 37.5% damage
When you add 1000 armor to reach 6000 armor, you take 1-6000/(6000+3000) = 33.3% damage

-> 33.3/37.5 = 0,889

1/0,889 = 1,125 -> effective health is only increased by 12.5% and not by 1/3

The higher your base armor is, the less effect you will get from a plain added amount of armor.

However: if you add a percent of armor (tough as nails for example), the more armor you got, the more effective it gets.


EH = 1/(1-DR)

5k Armor = 1/(1-62.5%) = 266%
6k Armor = 1/(1-66.6%) = 300%

5k Armor = 1/33.3 = 266%
6k Armor = 1/37.5 = 300%

EH has increased by 1/3 of base. All other things non existant. Don't know why you're comparing the relative DR increase of armor, as we've said that has diminishing returns in order to keep the EH scaling linearly with armor instead of increasingly.

What you should actually be comparing is the % decrease in damage taken over the total damage taken. So like this:

(37.5% / 33.3% - 1) / 37.5%
12.5% / 37.5%
33.3%

Or as you've done:

(1 / (33.3 / 37.5) - 1 ) / 37.5%
(1 / 88.8% - 1) / 37.5%
(1.125 - 1) / 37.5%
12.5% / 37.5%
33.3%

which is the same as (0 to 1k armor)

(100% / 75% - 1) / 100%
(133% - 1) / 100%
33.3%

Here's a little spreadsheet showing the data with our two ways of doing it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ag4BdvmMzezudDVzWENSRHRTVE1XT0xKSmN6VzBLeHc&output=html

Note that x/y is just y/x inverted. So 1/(x/y) is equal to y/x. For example:

1/(5/10)
1/0.5
2

Is the same as

10/5
2

05/25/2012 08:00 AMPosted by Gus
Gentlemen: http://rubensayshi.github.com/d3-ehp-calculator/


Very cool, thanks. I will probably make something still that will provide an analysis of stat points instead of just telling you EH and some other minor stuff, like giving you a breakdown of all the resistances, allowing you to select buffs from other classes (maybe you play with the same people), some functionality for gear comparison, and stuff (maybe include block if I feel like it.). Anyways, very cool.
Edited by BeNegative#1844 on 5/25/2012 10:22 AM PDT
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This has been proven over and over and over and over because it's been a common myth in gaming for as long as I can remember. Seems like people just looked at the damage reduction graph and thought "Hey, it's a slope!".

Weird that people don't do something simple like say... Difference between 70% reduction and 85% reduction-> 100 damage reduced to 30 and 100 damage reduced to 15. MY GOD, did I just cut the damage in half with 15% DR!?!?!? I must be magic.
Edited by Iamawalrus#2142 on 5/25/2012 10:07 AM PDT
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Thank you SO much.
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6 Gnome Warrior
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Posts: 1,187
That was an outstandingly informative read. Thanks for sharing with us, TBD.
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Because this is such an useful thread, lets bump stats of inferno player comparison spreadsheet :
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqYrBWDnH5_ndExJYXdsVXl5a2wzY05aRmJ6RXNzUlE#gid=0

From:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5149152735
Edited by dobin#2420 on 5/26/2012 2:44 AM PDT
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Wow! Amazing post, and yes would love to see %life and resists calculated into the comparing items simulator. Thanks for the assistance!
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How do I actually read this chart?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Ag4BdvmMzezudEFJTUpBYU54aFZCX3JlcHhqSVhwOEE&output=html
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05/25/2012 08:00 AMPosted by Gus
Gentlemen: http://rubensayshi.github.com/d3-ehp-calculator/


Not working correctly at least for lower levels. Buffed HP shows what my HP bar should show right?

46 lvl monk, 46lvl monsters, 985 vit, 801 dex, +EL 10%, 2352 Armour, 26 All Ressist, 0 MR,RR, 26% Dodge(without any mantras or passive skills on!).

+seize the initiative
+the guardian's path
+mantra of evasion
+MoE - hard target

And the result shows

Buffed Life: 37922.5
Buffed Armor: 3783.6

Actual values are:
BL: 22996 (not sure what buffed means here, but I have all auras and passives active)
Armor:2762 (with MoE -hard target and Seize the Initiative)

Is this a bug only for lower levels or?
Edited by Unhumanje#2210 on 5/26/2012 6:18 AM PDT
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It depends a bit on interpretation, but I would say armor actually does have diminishing returns. Effective health increases linearly with armor, so if you have more armor your effective hp will increase by a smaller percentage for each armor point. Each point of armor will therefore be less effective. The first 3k armor will make you twice as tough, the 2nd 3k armor will only increase your survivability by 50% etc, even though they add the same amount of hitpoints.
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05/26/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Shorkan
It depends a bit on interpretation, but I would say armor actually does have diminishing returns. Effective health increases linearly with armor, so if you have more armor your effective hp will increase by a smaller percentage for each armor point. Each point of armor will therefore be less effective. The first 3k armor will make you twice as tough, the 2nd 3k armor will only increase your survivability by 50% etc, even though they add the same amount of hitpoints.


If you increase armor by x%, you increase effective HP by x%. It's a linear function. (Forgetting resistances for the moment). That's like saying HP has diminishing returns because if you go from 5-10 hp, it's a smaller effect percentage-wise that 5000-5005. That is not DR......
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Dodge should only be factored in EHTPS/DPS charts - Effective Health Tanked Per Second vs Damage Per Second. I didn't get to Inferno yet, but I heard that most of elites one shot you very often, so it's hard to talk about HTPS in inferno - where it counts the most! To the OP - get in contact with these guys http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/EVE_Fitting_Tool_%28Out_of_Game_Tools%29 - no other game took meta gaming to a better degree than EVE Online :) Fly Safe.
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Mentioning effective HP got me on to something. Basically, by multiplying your EH and DPS, you would have an indication of the total damage a build could dish out before dying.
Seemed important to me to have an objective way of determining how good a build is, and this takes everything into account.
I wrote an extensive post about it here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5151723348
Edited by Origin#1751 on 5/27/2012 4:41 AM PDT
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Hi, i'm french and i think this kind of thread can realy help the community, are you agree to let me translate this in french ?
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Multiplying your ehp by dps is not a good measure.

Ehp in diablo 3 itself isn't a very good measure.

Here's why:

If you have 100k hp and 80% damage reduction, you have 500,000 ehp.

If you have 10k hp and 98% damage reduction, you also have 500,000 ehp.

Expected time to live in both situations are the same given no heals, or heals derived from revenge, furious charge with dreadnought/overpower heals (aka any % based hp restores).

However, in d3 a significant source of healing, and what I would say is ultimately the healing sources that will keep you alive return static amounts. Life per second, life per hit and life leech all return static amounts of hp (with life leech scaling with damage dealt, not ehp).

For example, my own barb has 700 hp/sec restore from gear, and a 1h with 557 hp life on hit with 1.3 attack speed. With frenzy I attack 2.275 times per second for 1267 hp/ second from hitting stuff and 1900 hp/sec including my health regen.

In situation 1, 1 hp healed is worth 5 ehp.
In situation 2, 1 hp healed is worth 50 ehp. My time to live in situation 2 is significantly higher, though the ehp remains the same. This doesn't factor in pots or mantra of healing, or other static life return sources. To borrow some eve concepts (since eve's local tanking concepts are essentially the same), increasing damage resistances makes local repair/healing all the more effective.

A mob would need to do 1900*5 = 9500 damage per second to kill character 1
A mob would need to do 1900*50 = 95000 damage per second to kill character 2
Edited by Endeavour#1528 on 5/27/2012 5:21 AM PDT
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Posts: 4
A bit off topic - how do I learn how to make graphs like that? Not the one from Minitab, the one in flash where the user can adjust the sliders. I'd be interested in learning web-based data management since I only know excel.
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True, true. But this would be pretty easy to account for mathematically, if someone could find the time to work out some creative formula.
I've done enough math for today, gonna watch some tv :P
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@ TBD if your a girl i marry you for + % Intelligence (affecs people around you) ... xD
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