Diablo® III

Is it only me who hates Tyrael as Mortal?

How can Tyreal just become human when humans are apparently descendants of Angels and Demons? How does that even work? Angels can apparently just decide to be whatever they want at any given time? It just seems silly to me.

Also, why did he become the Archangel of wisdom? He didn't really display much wisdom throughout the entire game or even the series for that matter. He's always been fighting for and sympathizing with humanity, he apparently IS justice, so why would he be wisdom?

If they wanted to have humanity ascend and take a spot in the Angiris Council, it should have been Deckard Cain as the figure of Wisdom. He would have been the perfect person to give the Angels insight into humanity to show that it's worth saving, and honestly he deserves it after all the WISDOM he's provided to the various PCs throughout the series. Unfortunately Blizzard seems to get off on killing their characters so they completely missed the boat on that one.
Reply Quote
Hmm i wonder.
Angels die their souls get reborn from the crystal arch.
Demons die they get reborn from the black abyss.
Humans die they.... get shafted?

In familiar territory it would be their souls go to heaven or hell but what's the deal in Diablo world? is it the same deal?
Reply Quote
Posts: 55
05/30/2012 03:13 PMPosted by Sintu
How can Tyreal just become human when humans are apparently descendants of Angels and Demons? How does that even work? Angels can apparently just decide to be whatever they want at any given time? It just seems silly to me.


Its been answered before but Tyrael is not necessarily human - just mortal.

The main difference is he can die now and doesnt have angelic powers like form shifting, wings or dimension travel.

He chose his mortal form so he can look like everyone else in humanity. Doesnt mean he has Naphelam powers. First-Generation Naphelms didnt even look like current day D3 humans. Weren't the barbarian Nephelam ancestors more like giants, while some Necomancer Nephelams were the form of serpents....?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
05/30/2012 03:32 PMPosted by Syn
Demons die they get reborn from the black abyss.


Demons who die are reformed in hell.

Angels and Demons who are destroyed by powerful means are sent to the Abyss.

Humans go to an afterlife that's been mentioned but not fleshed out. The Umbaru Tribe calls this place the Unformed Lands.
Reply Quote
Posts: 55
05/30/2012 03:32 PMPosted by Syn
In familiar territory it would be their souls go to heaven or hell but what's the deal in Diablo world? is it the same deal?


Its said when humans die their souls go to another place not the High Heavens or Burning Hells. Sanctuary was created at a different time to the creation of the BH or HH so the souls arent really tied to either place when they leave Sanctuary.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,315
Mortal Tyrael makes NO sense. Not only that, but they spent the past 4 years building him up as a sweet-looking angel, and now this.

Honestly, the writing department needs to be brought under control.
Reply Quote
Mortal Tyrael is bad because it is a huge lore violation. But since Blizzard has chosen to violate the old ways, we have to accept this. Tyrael as Wisdom is also terrible. It is VERY clear in lore that ONLY humans have free will, hence why Blizzard was forced to make Tyrael mortal in order to have him "change" into Wisdom. Both terrible. Angels cannot become human according to Diablo lore. Blizzard stomped all over prior Diablo lore, for no good reason.

But as I've said before, view D3 as a story told by a foolish child. He gets things wrong, exaggerates, and is illogical. You accept that the child is foolish so you let it slide, all the while knowing there's the true version of the story out there. One that actually makes sense...as hard as that is to fathom.
Edited by Brumbek#1473 on 5/30/2012 6:19 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 55
Didnt Inarius and Lilith take on human form and pretended to be human...?
Reply Quote
Ah whoops, thanks for the clarification Melyria :)
Where is the unformed lands mentioned?
Reply Quote
05/30/2012 08:03 PMPosted by Dioblastoise
Didnt Inarius and Lilith take on human form and pretended to be human...?

Inarius did disguise himself as human when he became "The Prophet", the leader of the Cathedral of Light cult. It is a bit ambiguous as to how he pulled this off, since all angels shimmer and have big wings and so on.

The key is Inarius was only pretending to be human. He was not, in any way, actually human. As the Book of Cain shows, Inarius, when he was chained by Mephisto, was very much an angel in appearance.

This is why I again say angels cannot become truly human. Hence, the D3 writers violated lore big time. Very regrettable since Diablo lore prior to D3 was so excellent and consistent. Ah well...
Edited by Brumbek#1473 on 5/31/2012 9:16 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 55
Didnt Inarius and Lilith take on human form and pretended to be human...?


The key is Inarius was only pretending to be human. He was not, in any way, actually human. As the Book of Cain shows, Inarius, when he was chained by Mephisto, was very much an angel in appearance.

This is why I again say angels cannot become truly human. Hence, the D3 writers violated lore big time. Very regrettable since Diablo lore prior to D3 was so excellent and consistent. Ah well...


But is Tyrael truly human? Or just a mortal in human form? In other words when he dies he will not be reborn in the Crystal Arch or can become an Angel (like Inarius) whenever he chooses.

Being mortal doesnt mean he has Nephalem powers either. Considering Angels are humanoid to begin with (humanoid armor), our human form is most likely from the angelic side. When Tyrael ripped off his wings he just removed the angelic powers that differentiates mortals and angels.

Unless he shows Nephalem powers (as a result of both Demonic and Angelic heritage), I dont see how its actually breaking previous lore.
Edited by Dioblastoise#1730 on 5/31/2012 9:35 AM PDT
Reply Quote
/signed.

I wouldn't have minded him being mortal so much, if they at least kept most of his appearance, namly the faceless hood. Giving tyrael a face made him really degrade as a character, I never wanted to see him have a face.

I really hope something happens in an expansion or something, that forces tyrael to take up his wings and become an angel again.

At this point, I would have rather Tyrael died then they keeping him mortal- at least he would have gone out in a good way.
Reply Quote
Posts: 63
You all just can't appreciate Tyrael as a big, sassy black man.
Reply Quote
05/31/2012 12:21 PMPosted by Austintacius
You all just can't appreciate Tyrael as a big, sassy black man.


He is not black he is tan. More like Egyptian to me. And I would hate him if he would be Caucasian type with blond curly hair- eeeek.

So his human form ain't that bad. But again that's not the point.

Tyrael's charm was that we couldn't see his face, that what the whole reason why Diablo angels were so friggin cool. And Tyrael next to cain become iconic characters for Diablo.

I think one of the most disappointing things about him now is the fact that :

-for like 4 years we were teased by Blizzard with his artowrk, and that big animated image on main page (the first one), just so see his awesome form in one cinematic.

-Another reason is the way he become the human, and the fact that in long shot it was stupid decision.

- Stupid ending cinematic that completely destroyed and violated both Tyrael and Diablo's Lore.

- the fact that after we found him in Crater he became very little interesting. He was very talkative and very over-the top, even cliche at times. That's not the Tyrael we all remembered and loved.

I guess most of us imply miss his awesome Angelic form, and the fact that he was guide for humanity. I would even dare to say, that after Cain is gone, it would be he which we would look up to.

I would really wish for him to regain his powers, and I believe that Ureh would be the perfect excuse for that.
Edited by Luksus#2869 on 5/31/2012 1:35 PM PDT
Reply Quote
Posts: 15
he became man (and stayed a man) to demonstrate that mortals were powerful and would tip the balance in the war of good vs evil once and for all instead of stand idley by like a lot of the archangels (excluding Imperious). I wish he was a better fighter in game though. I was tearing up stuff with all my fancy moves while he was just swinging his dinky sword over and over with little effect. Seriously, blizz should of gave him some badass special manuvers.
Reply Quote
I didn't mind mortal Tyrael so much. It was meh, but there are far, FAR more grievous problems with the plot to worry about it.
Reply Quote
06/01/2012 03:43 AMPosted by RedruM
he became man (and stayed a man) to demonstrate that mortals were powerful and would tip the balance in the war of good vs evil once and for all instead of stand idley by like a lot of the archangels (excluding Imperious). I wish he was a better fighter in game though. I was tearing up stuff with all my fancy moves while he was just swinging his dinky sword over and over with little effect. Seriously, blizz should of gave him some badass special manuvers.


He is not technically a man, only angel without wings aka mortal. That's huge difference. He is not real nephalem, since nephalems contain both good and evil. But if he really becuase of tossing wings became human then it's huge role violation.

Maybe I kinda used too harsh word ('hate') in the subject, but there has to be something getting attention, when it comes to whole subject description I guess I did some justice to story writers, since it's not a mindless rant, but compilations of thoughts and feelings about it.

As I mentioned before I have nothing against people who think otherwise, but the point of this thread is to find other people like me.
Reply Quote
The plot is overtly predictable, mediocre and a few of the settings may have needed a design over haul (Like making the High Heavens more... I don't know... Heavenly?)

But

Tyrael's sacrifice was a lot more symbolic than anything, sure, there was reason behind it, but it was more about his show of conviction that he would stand by his actions then anything.

I agree that Blizzard could have handled it better, but Tyrael is an Angel, an Archangel, not only that, he is also Justice itself, one of the highest leaders of the High Heavens and MUST abide to the laws his brethren set forth but, as ironic as it is, he broke them by interfering with the mortal world. Brazenly, as Imperius would add.

But even if he broke the laws of the High Heavens he did so while walking on glass, and did what he thought it best. Guidance. There were only three times he took direct action in the mortal realm, Forming the Horadrim, Fighting Diablo and his Brother, and Destroying the World Stone, other wise the other parts of interference was through guiding the Heroes of Humanity.

Tyrael is deserving of the title of Wisdom, as a true aspect of Justice cannot enact it's directive without Wisdom behind it, other wise it would only be tyranny, so don't think any less of Wisdom. And it is because of Wisdom that he was able to look beyond the laws, beyond the physical appearance of man and deep into their souls, he saw that man was not a weapon to be used in the Eternal Conflict, as the Burning Hells think, nor were they an abomination, as Imperius would come to agree, but something More, beings who struggle with the darkness everyday, who can find solace in the most depressing times and having the potential to be even greater then the Angels themselves. It is the same drive that Uldyssian embodied when he sacrificed his Godhood to protect the world he loved, despite it's shortcomings. So Tyrael did what he thought was True Justice and did what he had to do. To Protect the Innocent.

And so he did what he thought was necessary and stepped away from the pride of the Council and tore off his Wings. It was needed to circumvent the laws and avoid a likely scenario of a Civil War in the High Heavens and gave himself a sort of 'self banishment' to show his conviction.

- He opened the gates that were otherwise inaccessible to the Heroes
- He guided the Heroes to locations and told them what to do
- He gave all the knowledge he had to help, not just leave some cryptic clues like most guides in other games
- He took the offensive and fought along your side, help command the soldiers in Bastion's Keep and help give them a will to fight

In actuality he is NOT a Nephalem, but a Wingless Angel who is Mortal, more like a Fallen Angel and there is a difference, it is a form where he can relate to Humanity and form a bridge of familiarity between the two worlds of Sanctuary and the High Heavens. He has also proven his Wisdom of Judging Humanity by Who they are, rather then What they are, and became a sort of ambassador to Humanity and become the new leader of the Angiris Council.

And that's how I saw Tyrael, an Angel turned Mortal who still shined the brightest in all of the High Heavens, he may not look the part of an Angel but his actions speaks beyond all forms and time.

---

How can Tyreal just become human when humans are apparently descendants of Angels and Demons? How does that even work? Angels can apparently just decide to be whatever they want at any given time? It just seems silly to me.


And who said Angels lacked a free will? Inarius went renegade, Izual betrayed the Council, there were angels who went about and did there own thing (Like Eirena's Prophet who created the Sisterhood, something Itherael never knew existed), and Imperius's Valor turned Wrath. Tyrael is well bound within his will and Diablo lore to become Wisdom. It just seems like the certain aspects they represent dominate their personalities.

05/30/2012 06:18 PMPosted by Brumbek
Mortal Tyrael is bad because it is a huge lore violation. But since Blizzard has chosen to violate the old ways, we have to accept this. Tyrael as Wisdom is also terrible. It is VERY clear in lore that ONLY humans have free will, hence why Blizzard was forced to make Tyrael mortal in order to have him "change" into Wisdom. Both terrible. Angels cannot become human according to Diablo lore. Blizzard stomped all over prior Diablo lore, for no good reason.


It is entirely possible that Wingless Angels LOOK like Humans. Humans are the descendants of BOTH Angels and Demons and as Humanity has a singular form (Demons come in all variety of forms) inherited from the forms of Angels while Humanity inherited the flesh of Demons (Angels are beings of pure light and sound, their armor is more of a reflection of identity then it is for protection).
Edited by Arthuria#1263 on 6/2/2012 2:27 AM PDT
Reply Quote

Mortal Tyrael is bad because it is a huge lore violation. But since Blizzard has chosen to violate the old ways, we have to accept this. Tyrael as Wisdom is also terrible. It is VERY clear in lore that ONLY humans have free will, hence why Blizzard was forced to make Tyrael mortal in order to have him "change" into Wisdom. Both terrible. Angels cannot become human according to Diablo lore. Blizzard stomped all over prior Diablo lore, for no good reason.


It is entirely possible that Wingless Angels LOOK like Humans. Humans are the descendants of BOTH Angels and Demons and as Humanity has a singular form (Demons come in all variety of forms) inherited from the forms of Angels while Humanity inherited the flesh of Demons (Angels are beings of pure light and sound, their armor is more of a reflection of identity then it is for protection).

Well possible I guess...Tyrael is only described as being "mortal", never as "human" technically. Although, when Hope is lost, Tyrael is discouraged and acts like a scared little punk. This to me proved he was now "human" because he was being affected by Angels and Demons. If he merely became mortal apart from humanity, this wouldn't have happened. Hate to say it...D3 writers made him human. Also remember, what Leah said, "You chose to become ONE OF US." Blah...

So when we say, what happens when Tyrael dies now that he's mortal...does he resurrect at the Crystal Arch. Well...that would make him immortal. Hence, becoming mortal is a direct contradiction of what being an Angel means, IMO.

For the sake of trying to salvage D3, I'd be fine with them making Tyrael immortal again. Kind of a one lore violation must be fixed with another... Anyway, if Inarius and Lilith hated the Eternal Conflict so much, why didn't they become mortals? I still say becoming mortal is outside the power of Angels. The created being can't alter their nature.

Sad to say the writers just wrote a very childlike, over the top, script. We have to accept this fact.
Reply Quote
Tyreal? You mean Tyrone?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]