Diablo® III

Where Blizzard Went Wrong

Diablo 2= Trist runs until 10-15, tomb runs until 20, rushed through until Baal, cows until 25, Baal runs until 45-50, rinse and repeat... Seriously Diablo2 was not as "groundbreaking" as you all remember....


Well why do I feel like installing d2 again and throwing d3 out of the window?
86 Night Elf Priest
10910
Posts: 798
05/21/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Gregz
Diablo 2= Trist runs until 10-15, tomb runs until 20, rushed through until Baal, cows until 25, Baal runs until 45-50, rinse and repeat... Seriously Diablo2 was not as "groundbreaking" as you all remember....


Well why do I feel like installing d2 again and throwing d3 out of the window?


D3 = BROWN RING DROPPED OMG!

...

...

it's a nagel
05/21/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Gregz
Diablo 2= Trist runs until 10-15, tomb runs until 20, rushed through until Baal, cows until 25, Baal runs until 45-50, rinse and repeat... Seriously Diablo2 was not as "groundbreaking" as you all remember....


05/21/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Gregz
Well why do I feel like installing d2 again and throwing d3 out of the window?


I liked all of those runs. I've made countless characters just to do those runs. They were a major part of the replayability factor for me.
Blizzard can say that melee fighters have 30% Dmg reduction and Passives and abilities that increase how long you live, but that doesn't mean that mobs still don't hit rediculously hard. Notice how you have no melee champions that can farm act 3 and higher packs without dying over and over but ranged can. Monks aren't as bad as barbs because they have a lot of sustain and Dmg mitigation, but barbarians do not. Why would my group take me when all I do is make the mobs health higher? Yea I can add some control to the chaos and MAYBE allow them to kill a pact they normally would skip, but is that worth the extra hour clear time I add?

I go some sort of Dmg I die instantly, I go tanky I can't kill anything, I try to mix both and if I don't get a lucky proc on an aoe life steal ability I still die. I've been farming act 1 since last Friday, and my guild has been filtering items to me they find from act 2 and 3 when they do it solo and yes it does help, I can clear act 1 no issues and I killed my first 2 packs in act 2 today, I'm happy with it, I'm ok with having to farm to be efficient, and being tanky. However when we have a wizard hit 60 2 days ago and is already in act 3 solo with just a high dps 1 hand we found him and garbage gear compatible to mine, how does that make sense? The hard mode is fine, as long as its equal across the board, and the 3 ranged classes can kite their way to victory when I have to spam move and shift click hoping for a cd to come up or a proc to go off. It's unfair.

If its going to be this hard so be it, make it punishing to everyone even if they can avoid Dmg. I watch them do solo inferno and just move off the screen shoot in a general direction and most of the time the packs die. Has blizzard actually put a range vs a melee in comparible gear and seen how rediculously it is? I'm absolutely upset that the first post I see from blizzard on this is opposite of what I thought it would be. Melee classes are not fine. Play a ranged, see the difference. It's garbage.
Edited by zeroskillz#1838 on 5/21/2012 3:18 PM PDT
Ive been runnin around with my wizard dead bored of endless voice dialogues, carrying a 2 handed battleaxe that adds +200 vitality and intelligence. The only unique I've seen in the whole game was a bracer that added +1 stength and +2 dexterity and +3 xp kills with 15 armour.
Now tell me does that sound right to you guys?
86 Night Elf Priest
10910
Posts: 798


I can be full inferno 60 equipped in about 10 hours from killing hell diablo, and none of those items are FROM hell. It's from the cash I gained while in hell to buy INFERNO items from AH.


lol no.

*requires level 60* on your items doesn't mean you're ready for inferno. And if you're implying you got really good to perfect stats in only 10 hours of 'farming' Hell, you're a complete and total liar.


Did i say "ready for inferno?" No, i didn't. I don't even know what that means, since I've cleared Act1 inferno in less than level 60 across the boards gear. And I got upgrades from inferno. I do hell runs to get cash to buy items from inferno. I do inferno runs when I feel like beating my head against a wall and hope for an elite pack that only kills me 10 times. And I get yellows from those packs, in inferno, as well.

inferno 60 means level 60. And those items are gotten from inferno.

So you're saying i'm not ready for inferno until i get enough items from inferno? Makes sense.

Basically this whole "ready for it" nonsense is just that, nonsense. My friend got pretty good gear just by clearing non-elites and inferno bosses. Way better gear than obtainable through "farming hell" unless you're selling items to make gold to buy AH inferno items.

Unless there are some itemizations i'm missing i've not seen anything better itemwise out of hell than i can't get on the AH with repeated clear of act1 hell.

I know people desperately want there to be longevity to the game, but look on AH at all of the best items and realize how quickly you could obtain them.
Posts: 490
The point in replacing x with y when it comes to farming the champs instead of bosses is that it opens up the whole game to farming so your not locked into just the bosses. What they wanted to do makes sense to me. I wish they had WPs setup like D2 where you could travel to any act and any wp at any time.
Posts: 242
05/21/2012 03:08 PMPosted by Gregz
Diablo 2= Trist runs until 10-15, tomb runs until 20, rushed through until Baal, cows until 25, Baal runs until 45-50, rinse and repeat... Seriously Diablo2 was not as "groundbreaking" as you all remember....


Well why do I feel like installing d2 again and throwing d3 out of the window?


This worked for Diablo for... YEARS. The characters all felt different than one another as well.. Even when you had 3 different sorceresses, they all felt unique. Spamming these runs felt good because you knew what could be found in these locations as well. Not only that, but they were good places to level up. In Diablo 3, you don't need to do any of these runs. You just run straight through the acts... The only thing being that you still needed to find better gear. In D2, if you were doing these runs without any special geared characters in your group, no high level characters and no intent of being rushed... Diablo 2 actually became fairly difficult, yet it was still fun and is still fun to do to this day!

People still play Diablo 2 to this day and Blizzard says there is a lot wrong with it by making a foolery of us by making some illogical system that only partially makes sense and says it is better?

Diablo 2 was released in the year 2000 (But it wasn't too great until a lot of changes were made). I played it for 5 to 7 years and I still go back to it every once in awhile. People still play it and it is the year 2012. It has last 12 years!

Diablo 2 LoD was released in 2001.

I wasn't around D2 when it first released, but I do know that people were furious at certain aspects of the game, which were later changed and loved by majority of the people. The main issue I have with Diablo 2 are the gold sellers spamming everything.

I don't see why Blizzard forgot all about this and decided to pull it again. It baffles me as to why they would deliberately place themselves in this position once again.
Edited by Torazo#1738 on 5/21/2012 3:23 PM PDT
Posts: 374
Im saying in d2 people ran to the boss..kill get loot..repeat. they didnt want this in d3..so they had champs and elites have best drops. So now people go to a well known place..go to cave..kill chsmps..leave and restart. So..how is that any different? They replaced one method of farming with another..in which you do the same exact thing. Its now again to going to kill meph..diablo or baal. Except now you stop after the required elited and start over. They didnt fix or change anything.


I'm sure it's already been said, but the whole concept of "restarting" is hopefully mitigated by the stacking of magic find that occurs in Inferno when kill champion or elites. This would in effect make you explore more of the area, rather than constantly farming the same area.
15 Human Warrior
60
Posts: 197
I like D3 but blizzard went wrong in requiring a Always on connection while playing single player, I can understand multiplayer. A lot of the negativity could have been avoided if single player was available while multiplayer was having problems. D3 has a D1 feel to it which is not necessarily bad.
Monks aren't as bad as barbs because they have a lot of sustain and Dmg mitigation, but barbarians do not. Why would my group take me when all I do is make the mobs health higher? Yea I can add some control to the chaos and MAYBE allow them to kill a pact they normally would skip, but is that worth the extra hour clear time I add?


i'm not an authority on barb inferno difficulty and i'm not trying to say that barbs are fine, however ignore pain, threatening shout, ground stomp and warcry are all damage mitigating abilities. Plus nerves of steel, superstition and tough as nails. You don't need every skill on your bar to be a fury dump.

I honestly think that barbs really do take too much damage compared to monks, however I would not say that barbs "dont have damage mitigating abilities" in so much as barbs are forced to use nothing but damage mitigating abilities to do well in groups AND solo. IMO Barbs are pigeonholed into 1 role for pve because armor isn't nearly as effective for mitigating damage as avoidance is, and armor is the primary stat for barbs.

If nerves of steel and tough as nails gave a significantly higher boost to armor it would likely help barbs a lot.
86 Night Elf Priest
10910
Posts: 798
05/21/2012 03:20 PMPosted by Genova
Im saying in d2 people ran to the boss..kill get loot..repeat. they didnt want this in d3..so they had champs and elites have best drops. So now people go to a well known place..go to cave..kill chsmps..leave and restart. So..how is that any different? They replaced one method of farming with another..in which you do the same exact thing. Its now again to going to kill meph..diablo or baal. Except now you stop after the required elited and start over. They didnt fix or change anything.


I'm sure it's already been said, but the whole concept of "restarting" is hopefully mitigated by the stacking of magic find that occurs in Inferno when kill champion or elites. This would in effect make you explore more of the area, rather than constantly farming the same area.


The problem with it is range classes wear any +MF gear where melee can't and survive. it is a necessary "wow i hope i get good gear that happens to have MF on it" that range doesn't need to worry about so much.

This is due to weapon dps and primary stat being 90+% of the dps a range class puts out, and while taking 0 damage, other stats don't matter as much.

someone that's actually taking hits has to worry about ALL stats. dodge, mitigation, resists. So good luck with a good balance of that and MF / dps on top of vit and your main stat.

The stacking buff is nice, sure, but the concept should have been fleshed out. The first thing all of my ranged friends said when realizing you get that buff at 60 was "uhhh lol"

Another thing to realize is though i think there might be some sort of tiering system in place regarding how many items you get from elites/bosses based on % of mf, it still is a "rate". I was lucky enough to play most of the game in good gear with 80MF and my yellow rate from bosses was high. My friends hated bosses because they only got blues... until they learned how to kite and that they could wear all MF, clear the area and then kite the boss down.

"Boss runs being bad" is a distant memory from those who might've once cared, not an issue for the D2 loyal, and not a memory from those who didn't even play D2.

Act runs makes more sense in terms of getting randoms to join you. I guess. It was always annoying to be in a public game and then some dude joins and finishes it by killing the boss.

So that's solved.

But it doesn't mean boss runs HAVEN'T just been extended from only the boss to boss+5 buffs. All you've done is added a few minutes of clearing an area before the boss, instead of straight to the boss.

Why stop at a 5 buff... why not give players a boss kill score that means you're dominating an area to increase MF passively. Best of both worlds.
just saying there are no weakness on some elite packs, there are packs that you wont kill.

isnt hard to figure out but i will just trow a few of combos that you will never will get a chance to kill.

Molten ground + invunerable minions + w/e + w/e on snakes that go invisible and move 150%
molten ground + jailor + enchanted + w/e on 200% speed mobs that can 1 shot you

im not saying they should be easier, im just saying that they need a weakness.

any mob i can slow at least for a few seconds to let me get ahead and shoot couple of attacks will die, anything that i cant slow will 1 shot me pretty much, i have 25k hps, 26k dps, 40% reduction from armor and 30% dodge, playing demon hunter.

btw this is the most disturbing part of the champions rare packs, inmune mobs that reflect damage still deal damage you doing. that dosnt make any sense. why in hell i should be punish for hitting something that is inmune to damage, why i dont get reflected 0 damage since im not doing damage to them.
Posts: 4,098
05/21/2012 03:22 PMPosted by OvaltinePlz
Monks aren't as bad as barbs because they have a lot of sustain and Dmg mitigation, but barbarians do not. Why would my group take me when all I do is make the mobs health higher? Yea I can add some control to the chaos and MAYBE allow them to kill a pact they normally would skip, but is that worth the extra hour clear time I add?


i'm not an authority on barb inferno difficulty and i'm not trying to say that barbs are fine, however ignore pain, threatening shout, ground stomp and warcry are all damage mitigating abilities. Plus nerves of steel, superstition and tough as nails. You don't need every skill on your bar to be a fury dump.

I honestly think that barbs really do take too much damage compared to monks, however I would not say that barbs "dont have damage mitigating abilities" in so much as barbs are forced to use nothing but damage mitigating abilities to do well in groups AND solo. IMO Barbs are pigeonholed into 1 role for pve because armor isn't nearly as effective for mitigating damage as avoidance is, and armor is the primary stat for barbs.

If nerves of steel and tough as nails gave a significantly higher boost to armor it would likely help barbs a lot.


This is 100% true. I dont wanna be tank in this game.............i wanna KILL!@#$ not die and spend 60% of my time running back becuase i got hit trying to whirlwind for 90% of my HP each attempt on a rare.
80 Human Warlock
12565
Posts: 139
Blizzard can say that melee fighters have 30% Dmg reduction and Passives and abilities that increase how long you live, but that doesn't mean that mobs still don't hit rediculously hard. Notice how you have no melee champions that can farm act 3 and higher packs without dying over and over but ranged can. Monks aren't as bad as barbs because they have a lot of sustain and Dmg mitigation, but barbarians do not. Why would my group take me when all I do is make the mobs health higher? Yea I can add some control to the chaos and MAYBE allow them to kill a pact they normally would skip, but is that worth the extra hour clear time I add?

I go some sort of Dmg I die instantly, I go tanky I can't kill anything, I try to mix both and if I don't get a lucky proc on an aoe life steal ability I still die. I've been farming act 1 since last Friday, and my guild has been filtering items to me they find from act 2 and 3 when they do it solo and yes it does help, I can clear act 1 no issues and I killed my first 2 packs in act 2 today, I'm happy with it, I'm ok with having to farm to be efficient, and being tanky. However when we have a wizard hit 60 2 days ago and is already in act 3 solo with just a high dps 1 hand we found him and garbage gear compatible to mine, how does that make sense? The hard mode is fine, as long as its equal across the board, and the 3 ranged classes can kite their way to victory when I have to spam move and shift click hoping for a cd to come up or a proc to go off. It's unfair.

If its going to be this hard so be it, make it punishing to everyone even if they can avoid Dmg. I watch them do solo inferno and just move off the screen shoot in a general direction and most of the time the packs die. Has blizzard actually put a range vs a melee in comparible gear and seen how rediculously it is? I'm absolutely upset that the first post I see from blizzard on this is opposite of what I thought it would be. Melee classes are not fine. Play a ranged, see the difference. It's garbage.


Well said, I love my monk, or should i say "loved." Normal-Nightmare was a blast, i could keep up with an even occassionally do better than ranged characters, As soon as i get to hell and have NORMAL monsters killing me its just like wtf. Had to farm elites in NM just to get the gear to DIE LESS against monsters in hell. I understand thats the point of the game, but when im full tank with nearly 70% all resistance AND STILL DYING MORE THAN RANGED, there is a serious problem.
I dont mind tanking, dont get me wrong. I only play a tank in WoW(im aware this isnt WoW), but im not a tank, i build tanky, i look tanky, god knows im as weak as a tank, but yet i cant survive at all. I've tried different "builds" multiple times, but there is just no way for melee to survive well enough to actually be useful.
The point of the game is to farm and get loot yes, but for melee its farm lower acts get money then farm the AH. Theres no fun in that, we dont get to see all the intense fights, or get the satisfaction of getting drops ourself. I spend more time at the AH then i do in ALIVE in game.
05/21/2012 03:22 PMPosted by OvaltinePlz
Monks aren't as bad as barbs because they have a lot of sustain and Dmg mitigation, but barbarians do not. Why would my group take me when all I do is make the mobs health higher? Yea I can add some control to the chaos and MAYBE allow them to kill a pact they normally would skip, but is that worth the extra hour clear time I add?


i'm not an authority on barb inferno difficulty and i'm not trying to say that barbs are fine, however ignore pain, threatening shout, ground stomp and warcry are all damage mitigating abilities. Plus nerves of steel, superstition and tough as nails. You don't need every skill on your bar to be a fury dump.

I honestly think that barbs really do take too much damage compared to monks, however I would not say that barbs "dont have damage mitigating abilities" in so much as barbs are forced to use nothing but damage mitigating abilities to do well in groups AND solo. IMO Barbs are pigeonholed into 1 role for pve because armor isn't nearly as effective for mitigating damage as avoidance is, and armor is the primary stat for barbs.

If nerves of steel and tough as nails gave a significantly higher boost to armor it would likely help barbs a lot.


I am a barb in Inferno. This is what happens:

1. You take all those abilities.
2. You equip all of the vit/resist/dr gear you can get your grubby little hands on and head out with your sword and board.
3. You spend god knows how long beating white mobs with your gimp dps which is about equivalent to beating on a demon with one of those Styrofoam noodles you played with as a kid in the pool.
4. You find your first rare pack, and you very carefully pull 1 mob out of the pack, engage, and pop all of your defensive abilities and cool-downs.
5. Aforementioned mob kills you in one or two hits, and you took a massive 1k dmg out of his 420k health pool.
6. You res and come back, and notice your DH buddy has already cleared those three, the next three, and the area boss.

Balanced.

It is not less efficient. If you're talking about gear per hour, getting one level 60 blue drop from inferno gives you massive power gains compared to "farming hell"

You're simply not going to chain a buff in inferno with any guaranteed efficiency.


This is simply false. I am currently farming Act I Inferno with a group consisting of 2 melee and 2 ranged. I don't recall the last time we came across a champ pack we couldn't eventually kill.


What you can do is clear non-elites and bosses. You know the bosses STILL DROP LEVEL 60 BLUES. Heck even trash drops level 60 blues.

A full group of "fresh out of hell" can skip all elites in inferno and get blue upgrades just fine.

Even the level1 inferno smith doesn't give items at the quality that the first risen outside of town can drop.

In short, you don't know what you're talking about at all, and it is clear that you're not in inferno. NOBODY "cleared inferno elites" then "killed the boss" for farming. Nobody is really farming inferno this way. Just because blizzard intended that, or whatever you're assuming, doesn't mean it is how it is going to happen.


Sure when you first start out you have to pick and choose what to kill and sure Act II inferno at this point can not be farmed effectively (to my knowledge).

In short you don't know what you are talking about.

Act I inferno can and is being farmed as described and I am sure given enough time and possibly some tweaks from Blizzard this method will slowly become more viable as we progress through the Acts.

I can be full inferno 60 equipped in about 10 hours from killing hell diablo, and none of those items are FROM hell. It's from the cash I gained while in hell to buy INFERNO items from AH.

I got one drop from a trash mob outside of the start inferno, luckily, that took me from ~200-300dmg on my wep to 700dmg on my weapon. NO AMOUNT OF HELL FARMING WILL GIVE THAT TO ME. Do you understand now? Why its a problem that kiters can do this easier?

I really can't wait until you get to inferno, which is inevitable even with the playstyle you're describing. You will realize how wrong you are about how the progression in this game works.


As more and more people 'gather' in the same boat (IE trying to sell hell items to buy inferno items) this method of gearing will become far less efficient if not redundant altogether.

Making sweeping statements about how the progression and gearing in this game really works like its written in stone within the FIRST week of its release is just plain dumb.
Edited by Meltz#6461 on 5/21/2012 3:33 PM PDT
80 Human Warlock
12565
Posts: 139
Blizzard can say that melee fighters have 30% Dmg reduction and Passives and abilities that increase how long you live, but that doesn't mean that mobs still don't hit rediculously hard. Notice how you have no melee champions that can farm act 3 and higher packs without dying over and over but ranged can. Monks aren't as bad as barbs because they have a lot of sustain and Dmg mitigation, but barbarians do not. Why would my group take me when all I do is make the mobs health higher? Yea I can add some control to the chaos and MAYBE allow them to kill a pact they normally would skip, but is that worth the extra hour clear time I add?

I go some sort of Dmg I die instantly, I go tanky I can't kill anything, I try to mix both and if I don't get a lucky proc on an aoe life steal ability I still die. I've been farming act 1 since last Friday, and my guild has been filtering items to me they find from act 2 and 3 when they do it solo and yes it does help, I can clear act 1 no issues and I killed my first 2 packs in act 2 today, I'm happy with it, I'm ok with having to farm to be efficient, and being tanky. However when we have a wizard hit 60 2 days ago and is already in act 3 solo with just a high dps 1 hand we found him and garbage gear compatible to mine, how does that make sense? The hard mode is fine, as long as its equal across the board, and the 3 ranged classes can kite their way to victory when I have to spam move and shift click hoping for a cd to come up or a proc to go off. It's unfair.

If its going to be this hard so be it, make it punishing to everyone even if they can avoid Dmg. I watch them do solo inferno and just move off the screen shoot in a general direction and most of the time the packs die. Has blizzard actually put a range vs a melee in comparible gear and seen how rediculously it is? I'm absolutely upset that the first post I see from blizzard on this is opposite of what I thought it would be. Melee classes are not fine. Play a ranged, see the difference. It's garbage.


Well said, I love my monk, or should i say "loved." Normal-Nightmare was a blast, i could keep up with an even occassionally do better than ranged characters, As soon as i get to hell and have NORMAL monsters killing me its just like wtf. Had to farm elites in NM just to get the gear to DIE LESS against monsters in hell. I understand thats the point of the game, but when im full tank with nearly 70% all resistance AND STILL DYING MORE THAN RANGED, there is a serious problem.

I dont mind tanking, dont get me wrong. I only play a tank in WoW(im aware this isnt WoW), but im not a tank, i build tanky, i look tanky, god knows im as weak as a tank, but yet i cant survive at all. I've tried different "builds" multiple times, but there is just no way for melee to survive well enough to actually be useful.

The point of the game is to farm and get loot yes, but for melee its farm lower acts get money then farm the AH. Theres no fun in that, we dont get to see all the intense fights, or get the satisfaction of getting drops ourself. I spend more time at the AH then i do in ALIVE in game.
Edited by Iniquity#1510 on 5/21/2012 3:31 PM PDT
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