Diablo® III

Soul Harvest: a poorly designed skill?

A lot of you probably read my title and did a double-take, thinking "Wait, Soul Harvest is amazing, it's a key piece of my build!"

And that's exactly my point.

In short, Soul Harvest amps damage (and to a lesser extent, magic resistances) to the point that it's difficult to justify any Witch Doctor build without it. It appears that the returns do diminish, but it's still a massive damage amplification.

While I like the skill, I'm concerned about the existence of "must have" skills in this skill system-- I'd much rather see a wide variety of viable builds that incorporate the whole spectrum of skills, rather than a few builds that all incorporate Soul Harvest.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to fix it. I don't want to see it massively nerfed, but at the same time, it's so good at the moment I can't justify playing without it.

Thoughts?
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84 Tauren Druid
0
Posts: 321
A lot of you probably read my title and did a double-take, thinking "Wait, Soul Harvest is amazing, it's a key piece of my build!"

And that's exactly my point.

In short, Soul Harvest amps damage (and to a lesser extent, magic resistances) to the point that it's difficult to justify any Witch Doctor build without it. It appears that the returns do diminish, but it's still a massive damage amplification.

While I like the skill, I'm concerned about the existence of "must have" skills in this skill system-- I'd much rather see a wide variety of viable builds that incorporate the whole spectrum of skills, rather than a few builds that all incorporate Soul Harvest.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to fix it. I don't want to see it massively nerfed, but at the same time, it's so good at the moment I can't justify playing without it.

Thoughts?


Only real way to fix it is to nerf the damage increase it offers, and buff every other one of our skills by a similara mount.

I agree that it sucks that it is almost a must have, although playing without it is perfectly viable as well, just remember, and you may have room for something cool in your build that those with SH do not.
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90 Goblin Priest
0
Posts: 2,401
Why are complaining about something like sh.... Makes it more exciting ... Do you want to do what we did in d2 stand and just cast one spell from range and profit.... dont like something about a class live with it or reroll...
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It is exciting having to run in and get stacks, especially once enemies start hitting harder, but I think the main concern is that SH is a "must have" skill.
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Posts: 124
Its not a must have at all, its a must have at low levels in DPS heavy builds. Any build emphasizing survivability needs that skill slot for a real spell.

My friend is leveling a HC WD right now and has never used soul harvest. Its plain stupid in HC, sacrificing that skill slot which could go to a pet-buffer or a crowd control / defensive skill. The fact that you have to run into melee range makes it even worse.

My WD is currently in a3 nightmare and I've stopped using SH because I just get hit too hard when I run it. It basically necessitates that I cast fear, mass confusion, or spirit walk afterward to escape alive. Not that those are bad skills to have, its just annoying that it relys on packing skills that it doesn't buff (non dmg skills).

It also means you have to blow a very useful crowd control / escape cooldown early in the fight. Its really not fun facing down a pack of monsters in nightmare without your spirit walk / fear cooldown if things go south. I think you'll find as you progress through difficulties that SH becomes much less critical.
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85 Dwarf Hunter
7895
Posts: 353

My WD is currently in a3 nightmare and I've stopped using SH because I just get hit too hard when I run it. It basically necessitates that I cast fear, mass confusion, or spirit walk afterward to escape alive. Not that those are bad skills to have, its just annoying that it relys on packing skills that it doesn't buff (non dmg skills).

It also means you have to blow a very useful crowd control / escape cooldown early in the fight. Its really not fun facing down a pack of monsters in nightmare without your spirit walk / fear cooldown if things go south. I think you'll find as you progress through difficulties that SH becomes much less critical.


I'm at the exact same point as you and I'm not having any of these problems. SH wrecks face.
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100% agree.

I decided to stop using it for a while because it put me in harms way. I am currently using a build with spiders and grasp of the dead. soul harvest had me running up the front lines then running away. For me it just seemed beneficl to use that time to get my spiders out there!

firebat anything that gets close!
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Posts: 124
I struggle to understand how thats possible.

What build are you running? And what are your health / armor stats.

How are you avoiding getting hit?
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I also think Soul Harvest is a little too much currently, but I don't think it is poorly designed at all.

The goal here is to reward risks. Without this skill I would just stay behind all the time throwing spiders and bats from afar, but with this skill I have to risk myself into melee to get the buff. In fact, at higher difficulties sometimes you won't even have the opportunity to cast it.

I completely agree must-have spells are bad to the game. But in this case, Soul Harvest is a must-have now just because it can be overtuned, not because it is poorly designed.
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I have 2 different builds that I use without it so far. One of them is a Sacrifice/Firebomb build, the other is a DoT. Grasp + Rain + Pestilence + Haunt with darts (mana regen) as primary and spirit walk for oh!@#$ moment. With that last build I just soloed a x2 pack (other player was in town) with a yellow waller and never went below 50%
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Posts: 604
I see short term buffs like SH as helpful for increasing peak performance in ordinary situations, which as a HC player I don't care about. In the kind of situation I do care about, in which things may head south, or already have gone south, a short term buff which must be acquired in melee-range can be risky and/or difficult to pull off. As a kicker, it's annoying to keep renewing SH because of the short timer.

I'd much rather not give up 1 out of 6 skill slots to a power like SH, especially as it may be a target for nerfs anyways.

In short, I haven't used it and I won't use it.
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it's really good for aoe, crap for bosses and it uses two skill slots (you NEED spirit walk with this). Seems kinda balanced. I just don't really like the mechanic of it, it's really basic and kinda boring. Also voodoo pretty much out does it in everyway possible in team situations.
Edited by PANTERARULES#1799 on 5/16/2012 10:53 AM PDT
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A lot of you probably read my title and did a double-take, thinking "Wait, Soul Harvest is amazing, it's a key piece of my build!"

And that's exactly my point.

In short, Soul Harvest amps damage (and to a lesser extent, magic resistances) to the point that it's difficult to justify any Witch Doctor build without it. It appears that the returns do diminish, but it's still a massive damage amplification.

While I like the skill, I'm concerned about the existence of "must have" skills in this skill system-- I'd much rather see a wide variety of viable builds that incorporate the whole spectrum of skills, rather than a few builds that all incorporate Soul Harvest.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to fix it. I don't want to see it massively nerfed, but at the same time, it's so good at the moment I can't justify playing without it.

Thoughts?


I'm not sure I'd pick it up in Hard Core... It's a risky skill that begs you to pick up another defensive skill to make it work (spirit walk).

That said, SH is very strong... I just assume Inferno will rock my builds upside down.

Edit: This skill is not crappy for bosses. Not optimal use, but you can usually get 1-3 stacks in a boss fight which is still totally worth it (if only for the heal).
Edited by Derpes#1975 on 5/16/2012 10:55 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Warlock
8140
Posts: 88
I'm level 33 in Nightmare and hate Soul Harvest. In nightmare, with a shield, running into a pack of mobs will get me killed. Yes the damage increase is strong, but I'd rather not run my squishy in to get one shot. The skill slot is better used for grasp of the dead, hex, or fetish army.
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Posts: 460
You don't need to pair another defensive skill with Soul Harvest. You do need to focus on raising your defenses, which means taking gear that has 20 armor and 40 intelligence versus gear with 80 armor and 20 vitality would be a big no no.

The thing is though. Enemies will slip through your defenses after act 1 via teleports, leaps, or bombardment. Raising defense is critical to survial, and will likely be even more so on Inferno. You sacrifice some offense to be able to use this spell, but it makes up for itself. It basically allows you to completely ignore intelligence if you so choose and stack all vitality gear.

It's simply put -too good-. But whatever. I made a thread about this already. Let blizzard change it or not, if it lets me beat inferno, good for me!
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Folks : at my current level 26 - Act 3, I realized the most times I was getting hit was trying to use soul harvest. I then did not try to get close too mobs and I realized I was not using it as much as I used to.

Current Build, and kicking a$$ and taking names.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#cZheiT!bY!aa.aaa
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Posts: 244
Soul Harvest is incredibly powerful. I came here just to ask if it was working right and saw this thread. With the Gruesome Feast passive I can go from 150 int to 500 int using it. Totally worth the risk of running in and out. Especially if you use dogs, gargantuan and Templar to take aggro. I don't get hit that often. Maybe in the higher difficulties...

But it's just ridiculous how much damage Firebats can do with it. The firebats can heal whatever hit you may have taken while using SH, using Vampire rune. Also use the Final Gift on Zombie Dogs to boost the Gruesome Feast passive.

I can consistently boost my intelligence by 333% with SH and GF and take that to the next fight or sustain in long fights with lots of mobs.

Another thing to consider... you don't have to have 5 enemies to make it necessary, I feel even 2 enemies on SH is worth taking it as a skill.

Blizz may need to rethink this one.

--------------------------

Here's my build. It's all about pets and the grasp cc so you can get in and out, then Firebat them all. Poison Dart for single target dps. And hire the Templar. He'll take away even more aggro.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/witch-doctor#aZcYTd!bY!aaZZaa
Edited by Rasputin#1442 on 5/16/2012 11:47 AM PDT
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You don't need to pair another defensive skill with Soul Harvest. You do need to focus on raising your defenses, which means taking gear that has 20 armor and 40 intelligence versus gear with 80 armor and 20 vitality would be a big no no.

The thing is though. Enemies will slip through your defenses after act 1 via teleports, leaps, or bombardment. Raising defense is critical to survial, and will likely be even more so on Inferno. You sacrifice some offense to be able to use this spell, but it makes up for itself. It basically allows you to completely ignore intelligence if you so choose and stack all vitality gear.

It's simply put -too good-. But whatever. I made a thread about this already. Let blizzard change it or not, if it lets me beat inferno, good for me!


OORRRR on the flipside of what you're saying... you CAN take another defensive skill and itemize for offense :)

SW + SH synergy is STRONK
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A lot of you probably read my title and did a double-take, thinking "Wait, Soul Harvest is amazing, it's a key piece of my build!"

And that's exactly my point.

In short, Soul Harvest amps damage (and to a lesser extent, magic resistances) to the point that it's difficult to justify any Witch Doctor build without it. It appears that the returns do diminish, but it's still a massive damage amplification.

While I like the skill, I'm concerned about the existence of "must have" skills in this skill system-- I'd much rather see a wide variety of viable builds that incorporate the whole spectrum of skills, rather than a few builds that all incorporate Soul Harvest.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how to fix it. I don't want to see it massively nerfed, but at the same time, it's so good at the moment I can't justify playing without it.

Thoughts?


It didnt take long for someone to complain about skills, damn man, just play the game, you dont have to include SH in your build, the WD is just as good without it. I have a build with and without SH, not much difference in both. Figure them out.
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05/16/2012 11:01 AMPosted by Tolraucion
I'm level 33 in Nightmare and hate Soul Harvest. In nightmare, with a shield, running into a pack of mobs will get me killed. Yes the damage increase is strong, but I'd rather not run my squishy in to get one shot. The skill slot is better used for grasp of the dead, hex, or fetish army.


Very good, someone adapted, now will others?
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