Diablo® III

What do we Want Balanced?

Okay, now to add to your list:

Nerf:

  • Chakram
  • In particular, twin chakram. It melts huge packs for a low cost. I like it where it is at, but I find it to be superior to all other hatred spenders, save frost arrow/lightning ball runed elemental arrow when I get bored.

  • Bola
  • I can't seem to find a situation anymore I would take the other 3 over this. Grenades are meh, Regular Arrows (can't think of name) do lower damage and don't have CC effects. Entangling Shot's damage is low, but it is useful in solo situations or when you are with someone that needs the slow, like a Wiz.

    Plus, Bola synergizes with our high mobility and CC - we can afford to wait out the delay. I think the damage/utility of the other 3 needs a buff really, rather than nerfing this.

  • Spike Trap
  • This has amazing damage. I love this spell. Stack 4 of these with the delayed timer ability and watch your enemies blow up with ease. Works great with Caltrops or a tank. You can really make enemies pay for chasing you with this or do great single target damage on bosses. I like where it's at, but it's really nice.

    Buff:

    Rapid Fire

    Decent damge, but single target and costs too much Hatred. Also, forces you to stand still, which is counter-intuitive and doesn't compensate with extra damge or reduced cost. I find Impale for single targets, elemental arrow, or chakram to be far superior. Rather than reduce the cost, I would buff the damage, as you would have to stop/start/stop/start more, causing you to pay that initial 20 hatred just as much.

    Fan of Knives

    A neat move from Warcraft 3 is very poor in D3. A small AoE that puts the user at high risk and doesn't compensate with high damage. Also, a stupid long cooldown ruins this spell for me. This one really needs work imo.

    Rain of vengence

    Looks cool, but isn't that effective. Again, I have to wonder if this is for a melee build or something. It suffers from the same issue as Strafe, when would I want to be surrounded to get maximum utility here? Even if you vault/SS in, Shadow Power, and vault/SS out, there's still a huge risk of death and high discipline cost of that combo. I would always rather take Cluster Arrow. Also, a silly 30 second cooldown to top it off and it's not like it clears the screen like those moves in classic beat-em-ups.

    Impale

    In most instances where this is good, elemental arrow is as good, but costs much less. Probably useful only for bosses or elites, when the added CC from frost arrow doesn't work or isn't needed (think Balial). The costs needs to come down to around 15 Hatred, imo.
    Edited by Diablo#1340 on 5/19/2012 1:01 PM PDT
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    Right now there are a few builds and skills that are viable and useful and a ton that are not. Demon hunter needs preparation and SS to survive even if you have a tank friend. These two skills are barely good enough to be effective so they most certainly cannot be nerfed. Other skills do need a buff though. I'll comment on a few but almost a lot of the skills are just not useful.

    Caltrops is garbage. You use it to slow monsters down if they are within a small circle. The thing is, slow monsters stay in the circle longer which doesn't help kill them as they are easily kited. Fast monsters, the monsters you want slowed, walk past the small circle very quickly and you end up slowing them for half a second. You'd think that realistically, faster monsters would come out with bloodier feet and slower movement speed.

    Strafe is useless too. You can kite just as quickly as you strafe away (plus kiting screws up mortar AI) so why not pick something with a little more damage? Unless you go for the movement speed rune. But then your damage is abysmal. With 100% critical hit rate, you would still do more with devouring arrow than if you took this skill with the knives rune (if I'm reading it right). If the damage is going to stay abysmal, this skill should generate hatred instead of burning it. Otherwise, the damage needs to be buffed by around double. Rapid fire also needs a buff.

    In inferno, vault is only useful against fast champions. Anything else is easily kited or must be skipped. The reduced discipline rune helps create space as double vaulting is needed to get a bit of room to fire or else you'll run out of discipline. But vault is useless against jailors and wallers. As I see it, DH is already less survivable than wizard. Why not buff vault to be more like teleport?
    Reply Quote
    Edited the first post. Alot of people have mentioned slowing abilities being weak (Caltrops), but when combined with Cull the Weak, I think they're okay.

    "•Bola

    I can't seem to find a situation anymore I would take the other 3 over this. Grenades are meh, Regular Arrows (can't think of name) do lower damage and don't have CC effects. Entangling Shot's damage is low, but it is useful in solo situations or when you are with someone that needs the slow, like a Wiz."

    Grenades are awful. Hungering Arrow is actually alright. Entangling Shot is good. I think it serves a niche role as a slowing device, especially with Culling the Weak active. Both Entangling shot and Grenades give great hatred regen though.

    One of the biggest problems with grenades is their slow speed. They can't hit targets that are moving towards you.

    I took some time to try every single ability (and most of the runes) in Hell earlier and I have to say some are just grossly overpowered and others patrhetically weak. There's also a big, big issue with runes being inconsistent. Off the top of my head, Elemental Arrow has two amazing runes and the others suck.

    For Multishot, Fire at Will is great (so is the Discipline generating one), but the other runes are all lacking. Companion has the bat (which is still awful) and all the other runes will never be used.

    ------------------------------------------------

    After trying alot of the abilities, I wonder if they intended a melee-ish build with:

    Primary: Evasive Fire
    Strafe (basically Whirlwind)
    Fan of Knives
    Shadow Power
    Rain of Vengeance
    Preperation

    It would be a really interesting build if it was feasible.

    The problem with Preperation is that its a full-blown synergy ability. It's only purpose it to make up for limited Discipline, so it's either a) mandatory since all discipline costs are balanced around it. Or b) overpowered if other discipline costs aren't balanced around it.

    We also run into the issue of it taking up a slot. I can't think of a single DH build that shouldn't have it.

    ------------------------------------

    SS was clearly designed to remove aggro and let you run away. Right now, it's just used as a tank ability, since it grants 2-3 seconds of care free offense. I think they should either a) remove the ability to attack while it's active (or make it stop when you attack) and/or b) make you invisible, but not invulnerable. It also shouldn't break stuns.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 12:23 AM PDT
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    Vault Fix:
    Allow DH to vault through walls made by wallers.
    Reply Quote
    Make sentry scale with dex, all I want.
    Reply Quote
    Sentry does scale with Dex, just like all of the DH's other abilities.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/19/2012 10:52 PM PDT
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    it's almost MANDATORY for Hell and Nightmare

    I assume you mean Hell and Inferno, just thought I'd point that out.

    Also, the issue doesn't lie with Smokescreen on it's own, it lies with the fact that all the discipline regens synergize way too well.

    But at the same time, I fear for the class if they are taken away.
    Reply Quote
    Smoke Screen is THE skill for us, and you want it nerfed? No thanks, I couldn't beat any act in Hell if it got nerfed, much less Inferno.
    Edited by Azzurri#1106 on 5/19/2012 11:12 PM PDT
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    I assume you mean Hell and Inferno, just thought I'd point that out.


    Thanks. Edited.

    SS is an issue all of its own. It's a broken ability. Can you even imagine how cheap it will be in PvP?

    Even with discipline regens (I assume you mean prep, bola, and multi), Vault and Shadow Power still don't perform nearly as well as SS for defense. Caltrops are situational.

    I think SS needs to be brought down a little (see my above post for options) AND Vault/Shadow Power need slight boosts. I have no idea what to do with Preperation.

    Smoke Screen is THE skill for us, and you want it nerfed? No thanks, I couldn't beat any act in Hell if it got nerfed, much less Inferno.


    You don't see an issue with having one all-powerful skill? SS and Preperation are pretty much mandatory right now, which means 2 of our six ability slots are predetermined. We have very few build options when SS is this all-powerful.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/19/2012 11:37 PM PDT
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    Bosses are fairly weak in co-op. SS + Prep + Elemental Arrow will get you through Diablo fine. Bola with Thunder stunning helps too.

    Worst case scenario, bu a level 45 bow in the auction house. You can get 200 dmg bows at that level for 5300+ DPS.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/19/2012 11:42 PM PDT
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    Ditch Multishot and Hungering Arrow. Use Entangling Shot for Hatred regen or Bola for stunning. Elemental Arrow or Rapid Fire should be used for primary damage. Buy a nice bow form the auction house.
    Reply Quote
    90 Human Rogue
    12670
    IMO:
    The main problem with the Demon Hunter on Inferno is that it is a one-trick pony. Smoke Screen / Lingering Fog + Preparation / Highest Return Rune for your gear is essentially mandatory. DHs can't survive Jailer, Fast, Waller, and hell, most affix elites without Smoke Screen to break CC. The other defensive abilities (and Vault) need to offer some way to deal with CC so that we have alternatives and can actually choose how to deal with CC. I personally love Vault and would enjoy being able to actually use it.


    I beg to differ, since There's not a single elite setup that I can't beat, I do use Smoke Screen but i dont even use Prep.

    The theme of these threads all come back to one thing that is the problem, It's not a nerf/buff issue, it's a Learn to play issue.
    Reply Quote
    I beg to differ, since There's not a single elite setup that I can't beat, I do use Smoke Screen but i dont even use Prep. The theme of these threads all come back to one thing that is the problem, It's not a nerf/buff issue, it's a Learn to play issue.


    Please take your inflammatory comments elsewhere. There hasn't been a single game in history that's been perfectly balanced on release, especially when it doesn't even have PvP available yet. Learning to Play will not make Sentry and Companion viable abilities at higher difficulty levels. Nor will it make SS any less necessary on Inferno.

    Sure, maybe you could make it through Inferno with amazing allies or a ridiculous number of deaths, but SS is undeniably overpowered right now. 12 seconds of invulnerability is not balanced by any stretch of the imagination. Especially not once PvP comes into play.

    Bola and/or Multishot or a LOT of kiting can replace prep.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 12:16 AM PDT
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    90 Human Rogue
    12670
    05/20/2012 12:13 AMPosted by Wingdnosring
    I beg to differ, since There's not a single elite setup that I can't beat, I do use Smoke Screen but i dont even use Prep. The theme of these threads all come back to one thing that is the problem, It's not a nerf/buff issue, it's a Learn to play issue.


    Please take your inflammatory comments elsewhere. There hasn't been a single game in history that's been perfectly balanced on release, especially when it doesn't even have PvP available yet. Learning to Play will not make Sentry and Companion viable abilities at higher difficulty levels. Nor will it make SS any less necessary on Inferno.

    Sure, maybe you could make it through Inferno with amazing allies or a ridiculous number of deaths, but SS is undeniably overpowered right now. 12 seconds of invulnerability is not balanced by any stretch of the imagination. Especially not once PvP comes into play.

    Bola and/or Multishot or a LOT of kiting can replace prep.


    Please take your superiority complex elsewhere. YOU are not going to help resolve any issues there may or may not be in Diablo 3. I am going to go out on a limb and guess, You're a World of Warcraft baby, who believes that there needs to be a balancing patch every 5-6 months.

    There's nothing to balance, everything has its place. While I do think sentry is pretty awful for inferno. You are attempting to do Inferno with far far far far inferior gear than that is what it was told we would need. Diablo 3 isn't a game about level or skill. It has always been a game about farming gear, to farm gear, to farm gear. Then when you're done farming gear, you farm more for your alts and to sell.

    PVP? You've obviously never played any Diablo series.

    Take the proverbial stick out of your !@#, and sit back and realize something.

    You are awful at this game.
    Edited by Teqnik#1261 on 5/20/2012 12:29 AM PDT
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    Some abilities which better tackle healing/resistance/damage reduction needs.

    They gave us some neat close ranged abilities and I'd like to use them. I'd much rather be tumbling around the outskirts of a pack than just kiting them for 6 screens straight.

    I'd also like to see Marked for Death apply to an area of mobs on click (sort of like the D2 Necromancer Curses) and have the runes changed to apply different types of weaknesses rather than the ability's current design. It would bring much better damage output related utility to the game and give it to the class which should have it (and needs it).

    Just one question what other defensive abilities do DH have vs Elites and Rares in Inferno mode? This is what the game comes down to is in that mode and those are the only things that kill anybody at the moment... All the elites are immune to slows so kiting isn't much of a option and DH have no Damage reduction. You vault once and then again and your disc starved. You arn't doing enough damage to kill the elites in this time.

    So how would you go about nerfing the only defensive ability a DH has right now? Just wondering.


    I'd really like to see it not be our "only defensive ability." It is a pretty glaring hole in the DH design that there aren't any "take X% less damage from Y source" or flat increased armor/resistance/etc passives. DH is the only class which something like this is missing from.


    Turning us into ghetto Wizards is not the answer. I don't want mitigation passives on my DH, I want mobility and subterfuge. I like the concept of the DH being extremely fragile and extremely mobile, it separates our playstyle from Wizards.

    Smoke Screen & Preparation is fine. It's governed by a very limiting mechanic in Discipline, and that gives it both benefits and drawbacks. It's also the only way of dealing w/ non-kitable damage, and DHs will suck if it gets touched w/out some serious class adjustments. If anything, I'd prefer to see Preparation removed entirely and for our Discipline pool to regenerate faster as a base-line class improvement.

    The real issue is Tumult; it sucks. It costs too much Discipline, it has a murderous delay in it's animation, and due to that delay it's incredibly easy to spam the skill accidentally and not only end up back where you started, but also end up being bone dry on discipline in the process. Plus, the delay itself prevents you from being able to get out of melee range fast enough to avoid that inevitable one-shot.

    It needs to have it's discipline cost halved (if not more) and the animation should be fluid and instant. I'd also love to see an significant dodge bonus attached for a few seconds following the tumult. I love the idea of being able to flip around the battlefield avoiding my enemies, but the discipline cost and animation delay make Tumult into more of a liability than a go-to skill.
    Edited by Zurrain#1503 on 5/20/2012 12:38 AM PDT
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    1. Never played WoW.

    2. Where did you get superiority complex from? Every single person on this thread (even those that don't want a nerf) have agreed that SS is the most important and most irreplacable DH skill right now. Everything should have a place, but right now alot of skills don't.

    3. I played D2 way too much in my youth. PvP played a large role to a very small crowd. Why do you think they released this game without PvP, when they had working demos for PvP over a year ago? Balance, balance, balance. They know PvP would suck in the game's current state.

    4. Where did you get that I'm awful at the game? Have you seen me play? Or is that just another inflammatory comment you decided to throw into somebody else's community-based thread for no reason?

    5. Don't start a flame war here please. I'm trying to get people's impressions on abilities that are stronger or weaker than they should be.

    For the record I went through Normal and alot of Nightmare solo and without alot of the strongest abilities. I only used Elemental Arrow in Hell and SS in late Nightmare. Having used Vault, Rapid Fire, etc for so long, I can tell you the game's a LOT more challenging and entertaining with them, but it just becomes impossible after a point. Vaulting is alot more interesting and challenging to use than SS.

    ----------------------

    @Zurrain

    I think you're on the right track for Vault changes. If it could dispel some Aggro, that would help too. SS should also be made an escape ability instead of a tank option. Dispelling aggro is fine, but it should give invisibility not invulnerability. You also shouldn' be allowed to spam attacks while invisible IMO, but that might make it too weak. Strangely, some enemies can hit through SS, while others can't.

    I feel like Shadow Power might be key to helping out the DH defensively. It has all the attributes we need to stay alive longer, it's just not being used with current builds.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 1:00 AM PDT
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    Vault needs that .5 second delay removed.

    And female demon hunter requires more cleavage shown.

    That is all.
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