Diablo® III

What do we Want Balanced?

Having beaten Normal mode last night for the first time with a Demon Hunter, here's my thoughts.

Smoke Screen is a mandatory, because things like the actives that are supposed to get you out of harms way will randomly change your direction on you and have you tumble back into an enemy if you're not really, really careful. I've found myself using Hungering Arrow, Rapid Fire, Smoke Screen, Preperation, Rain of Vengeance and Turret. That setup, with a little dedication to gear (no, I don't buy from the auction shop) has seen me go through without a worry.

If you could fix the other movement based abilities to not be so bad, then Smoke Screen becomes less important. In fact, I wasn't using it until I found myself struggling as I was trying to use Evasive Fire and Vault and dying a lot, and looked up what others were saying here.

I don't overly care if it IS overpowered as an ability... I don't play to compete with others. I play for my own enjoyment, and it adds to that. If it is going to get a Nerf, then maybe have it make you invisible but unable to attack, and have it quickly restore your hatred. The main time I use it is when I get swamped by champions/elites or my Hatred runs out and I need to recharge it with Hungering Arrow... so I tap SS on and fire away for 4 seconds, then resume using Rapid Fire.
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Posts: 259
Try Grenades and Cluster Arrow (with Cluster Bombs) rune in a Grenadier build.

I'm in Hell and I absolutely melt everything with these skills. No buffs needed here.

Smoke Screen could use a nerf, but only if Hell and Inferno mobs are nerfed too so that I don't get one-shot by every random mob despite stacking vitality.
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Posts: 187
Really Stealthrider? I tried Grenadier with Grenades and Cluster Arrow and I found it to be horribly inferior to Elemental with Entangling, plus I got my pick of passives. Cluster is strong, don't get me wrong, I just think its hatred cost is far higher than it should be.
Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 1:15 AM PDT
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everyone wrote correct stuffs so to keep it short. ur wrong. ur starting hell? get to inferno nd ask to nerf those skills. dh wouldnt even b close to viable without those skills. as for buffs, they can work, just very situational.

hit lvl 60. beat inferno. then talk.
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I don't think nerfs would help anything. DH doesn't have a significant advantage over other classes. So what is the point in nerfing them?

Maybe SS because of player perception. As long as it's literally an invulnerability mode that lets you attack during it, it's going to be considered the best DH skill by most players.

There are quite a few buffs needed to add some options. A lot of the hatred spenders are sketchy at best. I don't want to go over all of them but the short story is most of them suck and only a few specific runed ones are good/practical.

PS: Got to hell without SS. Currently in act 1 waiting for buddy to continue with him.
Edited by Khristophoro#1862 on 5/20/2012 1:30 AM PDT
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Coming from a DH with some pretty decent gear who's in Act III inferno, smoke screen is basically essential from Act II onwards. I've stopped caring about whether my gear has vit or resistances on it because it simply doesn't matter, normal mobs hit me all the time for 70k+. You will basically play act 2 and on by running into a pack of mobs, popping smoke screen and getting a few hits in, and then running away to avoid getting instantly !#@*d.

I also don't see anything from Belial onwards being soloable without it in it's current state. I just barely eeked out a solo kill on Belial with 50 discipline + smoke screen/prep. It's just mandatory to avoid getting instantly killed by any of his attacks (hell, his adds will almost one shot you). You'll be constantly watching the cooldown to see if it's available for his next attack.
Edited by Galimore#1357 on 5/20/2012 1:32 AM PDT
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Posts: 187
Coming from a DH with some pretty decent gear who's in Act III inferno, smoke screen is basically essential from Act II onwards. I've stopped caring about whether my gear has vit or resistances on it because it simply doesn't matter, normal mobs hit me all the time for 70k+. You will basically play act 2 and on by running into a pack of mobs, popping smoke screen and getting a few hits in, and then running away to avoid getting instantly !#@*d.I also don't see anything from Belial onwards being soloable without it in it's current state. I just barely eeked out a solo kill on Belial with 50 discipline + smoke screen/prep. It's just mandatory to avoid getting instantly killed by any of his attacks (hell, his adds will almost one shot you). You'll be constantly watching the cooldown to see if it's available for his next attack.


Thank you for confirming what I've been saying as an Inferno player. We need more options and SS is just in a class of its own for abilities right now.

I'm surprised Inferno is soloable at all. I thought it was intended for full parties only in terms of difficulty.

I've altered the OP to better reflect the discussion. Too many people were getting caught up on the term 'nerf' and thought I was asking to make SS worse so inferno would be impossible. In fact, I'm saying every skill should (ideally) be equally viable and right now some are almost mandatory and others have no place.
Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 1:46 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
12980
Posts: 4,974
BLIZZARD ARE NOT CHANGING PVM SKILLS BECAUSE IT MAY BE OP IN PVP. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD THIS IS NOT WARCRAFT. ONLY MAJOR EXPLOITED/BUGS NEED CHANGING OR SEVERELY UNDERPOWERED SKILLS PERHAPS.

God damn.
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So then, I suppose what you're after more now would be "How would you improve some/most of the DH skills to actually be viable?"

I'd love to see something like a "Leap Attack" that the Barbarian has, so that you can leap over an area and lay down suppression fire as you go or cause an area knockback effect on landing so that you can take off sprinting. Something like this would allow you to get out of bad situations without being invincible. Badguy throws up walls, you leap over it and for good measure knock any nearby baddies back a bit so you can run and play like the class feels it is intended to.
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Posts: 187
That was really what the thread was always about. In a game like this, you want as many skills as possible to be viable AKA balanced. Right now, SS is too good, so it leads to a mandatory skill slot. Preperation makes it even better, so it usually takes up another.

Meanwhile the generally unused skills (like Sentry and Companion) lie useless off to the side, nowhere near good enough for a skill slot to be used on them.

Because of the limited skill slots, each ability is in direct competition with the others. Having some outclass others creates a big problem.

@ SecondTime

I never suggested this was warcraft. Diablo 2 underwent balance changes for years after its release. PvP played a large part of that and certain overpowered abilities got nerfed hard (remember Frozen Orb and Whirlwind back in the day?).

Ultimately, by the time you hit Inferno, everybody will be using the same abilities. No two DHs will be different and that's a horrible shame considering we have 30 active abilities (each with 6 variants, for 180) plus 15 passives.
Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 2:11 AM PDT
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Posts: 632
Sure lets nerf Demon hunter - when the first class to defeat Inferno is a Wiz.

You guys are just trying to buff out the skills you love using, and nerf the ones that you don't which is pretty stupid especially when you judge a class after finishing normal/nightmare.

The only ones I thought that were pretty useless are Grenades and Night Stalker.

Everything else is fine.
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Posts: 187
@ Sizzle

I'm not sure what you're suggesting...that everything is perfectly balanced except for Wizards just because somebody was quicker to beat the game with them?

So long as one ability is superior over another (which will always be the case, even if the game was in development for another 20 years) then there's room for improvment. Right now, going through Inferno without Smoke Screen is impossible because it's so grossly overpowered compared to the DHs other defensive abilities.

You guys are just trying to buff out the skills you love using, and nerf the ones that you don't which is pretty stupid especially when you judge a class after finishing normal/nightmare.


And how far did you get as a Demon Hunter before determining that DH are fine? Even as early as the end of Nightmare, it's pretty clear that certain abilities aren't worth a skill slot, like Companion and Sentry.

Personally I don't like any of the abilities that I've listed as weak (with the exception of Companion), but I DO like having build options.
Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 2:44 AM PDT
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For those saying Smoke Screen shouldn't be touched, really consider what you're suggesting. In PvP it'll be broken. As it stands, it's almost MANDATORY for Hell and Inferno runs. No ability should be mandatory in a game like this. Blizzard themselves stated they wanted a customizable experience and SS severely limits that.


You must not have seen Hell Act 4 yet, so let me paint you a picture:

You have a 100% chance of dying if struck by certain mobs. Ever. I run Dex/Vit on every piece and I still get dropped in one hit. You want to nerf Smokescreen? How about you fight something where it's not physically possible to kill the mob without SS? Even with SS/Prep and at 9k DPS, I still run into mobs that take me 15 minutes of kiting to kill. If it hadn't been Corrupted Angels, and had instead been the Izual add mobs, I could not have killed the pack due to the 1-hit charge mechanic.

Edit: I'd also like you to explain why Bat Companion is weaker than an alternative, and what that alternative is, and why Ferrets aren't worth using for Goldfind because your alternative slot provides sufficient killing speed to surpass both the 10% GF and the time you would otherwise spend collecting gold.
Edited by Caffeine#1182 on 5/20/2012 3:03 AM PDT
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Coming from a DH with some pretty decent gear who's in Act III inferno, smoke screen is basically essential from Act II onwards. I've stopped caring about whether my gear has vit or resistances on it because it simply doesn't matter, normal mobs hit me all the time for 70k+. You will basically play act 2 and on by running into a pack of mobs, popping smoke screen and getting a few hits in, and then running away to avoid getting instantly !#@*d.

I also don't see anything from Belial onwards being soloable without it in it's current state. I just barely eeked out a solo kill on Belial with 50 discipline + smoke screen/prep. It's just mandatory to avoid getting instantly killed by any of his attacks (hell, his adds will almost one shot you). You'll be constantly watching the cooldown to see if it's available for his next attack.

Just wondering, what build do you use?
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Posts: 187
You must not have seen Hell Act 4 yet, so let me paint you a picture:You have a 100% chance of dying if struck by certain mobs. Ever. I run Dex/Vit on every piece and I still get dropped in one hit. You want to nerf Smokescreen? How about you fight something where it's not physically possible to kill the mob without SS? Even with SS/Prep and at 9k DPS, I still run into mobs that take me 15 minutes of kiting to kill. If it hadn't been Corrupted Angels, and had instead been the Izual add mobs, I could not have killed the pack due to the 1-hit charge mechanic.Edit: I'd also like you to explain why Bat Companion is weaker than an alternative, and what that alternative is, and why Ferrets aren't worth using for Goldfind because your alternative slot provides sufficient killing speed to surpass both the 10% GF and the time you would otherwise spend collecting gold.


I don't know why things like that keep coming up. I'm not saying "OMG nerf SS because I don't like it and think it's for noobs!" I think it needs to be changed simply because of PvP and the fact that it's currently MANDATORY. What you just said proves it. It's a MANDATORY ability. No D3 class should be forced to use an ability.

Vault and Shadow Power need to be made better to help us out defensively. No question about it. I want more options, not less. However, 12 seconds of fullout invulnerability isn't interesting gameplay or fair in competitive situations (which will be added to the game shortly). It also goes against what the Demon Hunter is designed for. We aren't supposed to sit in a pool of acid invulnerable. We're supposed to move around, lay traps, and fire long range. There are perfectly legitimate ways of making SS remain awesome for PvM, while still keeping the intended Demon Hunter gameplay intact and stopping PvP from being ridiculous.

With all that in mind, I'm suggesting a tweak to SS, to make it match the description a little better. It's a smokescreen...not god mode.

The purpose of the thread is to get people's opinions on some of the weaker abilities and see which abilities simply aren't being used. Instead I just get people attacking my stance on SS, which isn't the point of the thread.
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Bat is the only good companion. The wolf drains too much valuable Disc, the rest deal no damage. the spider is theoretically useful on elites, until those elites shield off the slow, or vortex you, or wall you, or teleport to you, or illusion up and distract the spider with an add, or jailer you.

Vault is an easy one to fix - allow it to interrupt a current action and move you instantly, and allow it to pass over temporary obstructions like walls. Maybe add a rune to it that causes it to break control effects.

Caltrops doesn't work for the same reason most slow effects don't work in hell+, all those elite random skills that mess with your CC or neutralize it.

Replace the immobilize caltrops with a stun one instead. a 2second AoE stun isn't exactly OP considering you have to be in melee range to re-apply it and SS provides 3 seconds of more reliable defense from any position.
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Coming from a DH with some pretty decent gear who's in Act III inferno, smoke screen is basically essential from Act II onwards. I've stopped caring about whether my gear has vit or resistances on it because it simply doesn't matter, normal mobs hit me all the time for 70k+. You will basically play act 2 and on by running into a pack of mobs, popping smoke screen and getting a few hits in, and then running away to avoid getting instantly !#@*d.

I also don't see anything from Belial onwards being soloable without it in it's current state. I just barely eeked out a solo kill on Belial with 50 discipline + smoke screen/prep. It's just mandatory to avoid getting instantly killed by any of his attacks (hell, his adds will almost one shot you). You'll be constantly watching the cooldown to see if it's available for his next attack.

Just wondering, what build do you use?


For bosses I'm using SS (lingering fog), Prep (+health rune), Marked for death (+hatred rune), Impale (chemical burn), Hungering Arrow (extra damage per pierce rune), and Multishot (fire at will).
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I keep hearing everywhere about smoke screen but i tried it and because I can't use caltrops, th emobs just get too close, also when I do use it, it doesn't last long so when I drop aggro 2 seconds later I have it again. Why is it so great?
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05/20/2012 07:11 AMPosted by Saejun
I keep hearing everywhere about smoke screen but i tried it and because I can't use caltrops, th emobs just get too close, also when I do use it, it doesn't last long so when I drop aggro 2 seconds later I have it again. Why is it so great?


Use lingering fog and chain them together. Unless you're well into Inferno it's not really that big of a deal but when you get there it's literally the only way to whittle down most of the enemies. Without it on you will die if they look in your general direction.
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