Diablo® III

What do we Want Balanced?

Nerf: - Smoke Screen ( Should not be able to attack while Invis/Immortal. Maybe Remove the Immortal part aswell)

Buff/Fix: - Rapid Fire does too little dmg for the Hatred it costs. Because its channeling and not
piercing it should do way more dmg or cost less Hatred, maybe abit of both.

- Strafe about the same problem as Rapid Fire, too much hatred for too little dmg

- Handle the problem with 2x 1hand xbow vs 1xbow + quiver. So much commercial about cool DH with 2x xbows and yet it suxx. 2x 1hand xbows = 1x 2hand xbow. Not a single 1hander with a quiver.
Edited by Vraith#1976 on 5/20/2012 7:28 AM PDT
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Ok thx for the info, i'm currently on act 2 nightmare so I guess it's not an issue at the moment.
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Unless we get some defensive passives or better runes on other stuff, nerfing smokescreen would only lead to killing the class in higher difficulties, both solo and group.

Shadow Power is terrible because of its prohibitive cost/low amount of lifesteal, Vault is nice at low level but since it doesn't cancel incoming melee attacks that are not usually dodgeable you still die while vaulting against certain mobs, sentry defensive runes have a really terrible range and sentry itself is expensive considering it's discipline based(if it was hatred based it'd be TONS better).

Currently even if you survive a hit, you have more or less no way to regen back up, Brooding is slow and just not good, most of the lifesteal option are extremely low and only heal a decent amount comparatively if you run glass canon builds(so you have low hp and high dmg, then you see "good" numbers but it's useless since you're probably full hp or dead).

Other than that though I think most abilities are fine, some runes are weak but there's a few good runes for every ability. With the exception of Strafe, it's terrible with every rune, it's a bad concept, channelling, eats a lot of hatred, does pbae, hits in random directions, reduces speed. With all these issues it should do like 700%weapon dmg or something.

For people who say Traps or Cluster arrows or whatever are bad, try the good runes. Scatter and Cluster Bombs are 2 of the highest dmging abilities in the game if not the most damaging, assuming you use them correctly. Scatter Trap is 3x 275%dmg which can be concentrated on a single target if you use walls/doors and such or if the target is big, Cluster Bombs is 6x230%dmg in a short line, most large size mobs get hit by every single hit, if that's not worth 50hatred, I don't know what is.

DH dmg isn't the issue, in fact it's potentially too high which I guess is where Blizzard was trying to balance, making them glass canons. It's just not very interesting design due to being forced into smokescreen spam or being instantly killed.
Edited by Pyros#2100 on 5/20/2012 7:30 AM PDT
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05/19/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Reat
Preperation, Multishot, and Smoke Screen are only amazing in normal, and just very good in nightmare. Once you get to hell the ability to do burst on a 45 second cooldown stops beings amazing. You need staying power and those three ability do not have it.

dude... fail.... so much fail....
Good luck surviving in inferno without SS/Prep
Edited by Frosty#1754 on 5/20/2012 7:40 AM PDT
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I cant see why people hate Fan of knives so much ? i do aoe crits for 120k ish. SS>fan of knives all dead.
I run

Hungering arrow
elemental arrow nether tentacles
SS
vault
Fan of knives
Prep

and i do far the most dmg in my team ! running monk wizz WD on inferno atm.

i can farm act 1 inferno alone but act 2 i get oneshottet by almost every mob.
so no way u can change ss
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Ok, lets consider the options and our current situation as demon hunters:

  • Most enemies will 1-hit us
  • I'm talking about hell and inferno here, sure not ALL enemies will straight up 1-hit but we generally stand no chance with enemies close to us and no means of escape. Beefing up armor and life might increase us to a 0.9 hit instead of 0.6 (which is still rounded to being 1-hitted lol).

  • We can't kill them before they kill us (straight up that is)
  • Imagine: You can't move / dodge and the enemy of your choice is at your maximum shooting range. It will move towards you and attack you. If you kill it you win. Most enemies will win this from you. (as opposed to Barbarian / Monk)
    No matter how much DPS you go you'll just won't cut this.

  • slow on its own is not enough to kite enemies and ranged still owns us (mortar D:)
  • As pointed out fast enemies will still race over your traps and a 0.5 - 1.5 second slow on each trap isn't cost effective and leaves no discipline for anything else.

  • our only option is survival
  • In normal, nightmare and the first act of hell I got away with a combination of: stun, slow, vault, and fear (I played with a barbarian to tank). It was at act 2 of hell I got problems (with solo also) and really took a close look at the various builds and saw that PMS (preparation + SmokeScreen + multishot) was really popular and it worked wonders for me. Being invisible is not my style so I discarded this option while starting but I was desperate to try something as act II of hell became troublesome.

    Now we all agree that SS with discipline generation is the dominant strategy. What sucks about dominant strategies is that they are the best solution for the problem, leaving no room to think about other strategies and combinations which make a game deep and fun.

    The problem is : 'how do I beat this game as dh?'.
    The answer should be : 'there is not one way to beat it, but here are some strategies :...'
    The answer now is : 'use smokescreen + discipline regen to stay alive, take 2 slots of your choice to deal some damage before you run out'.

    A nerf on smoke screen would mean giving us an even harder time on higher difficulties. What we need is an alternative. I'm no fan of being invisible and shooting (slaughtering) enemies as they stand still as sheep.
    I personally really enjoyed the playstyle of lower difficulties where I would run around, kiting and slowing enemies; jumping in them to lay some damaging traps and fan of knifes and bursting out (try that now and you're a 1-hit).
    Being dynamic and mobile really fits with the original image I had of the demon hunter and i would like to restrain from being invulnerable while slowly poking at unsuspecting enemies.

    It's impossible for Blizzard to up our means of damage so we can kill our enemies before they kill us as we could in normal and nightmare, it's just going to take a while to kill those bad boys in the higher difficulties. What we need is survivability, and we need to be able to survive by other means than SS.

    Besides this there is a load of abilities that are downright useless or are complicated (preparation on its own is a fine ability, but it is the thing that allows SS to be dominant). When balancing games you should do one thing at a time and tackle the biggest issue. Right now that is SS and I think it wouldn't be too wise to mess with other things before this is fixed.
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    Posts: 187
    TheBarry:

    You and I think almost the exact same way. It's not the SS needs to be nerfed, it's that we need options and right now SS isn't functioning as was intended. I loved the early gameplay. It was like a weird art form vaulting around, rapid firing, vaulting again, etc.

    As we get higher and higher in difficulty, the exact same layout is used by everybody. That's not what D3 was made for. Blizzard themselves stated that every class should have the potential for any build (tank, DPS, spells, physical, etc). Right now Demon Hunters can only go DPS and only with one very specific DPS build.

    From the little I've read on this forum, it sounds like the higher diffiulties are actually pretty broken right now and every class is facing the same issue (one viable build).

    @Pyros:

    Preperation is the go-to healing ability for DHs.

    Cluster Arrow (Cluster Bombs): 230% damage to a narrow line of enemies for 50 Hatred (40 with Grenadier)

    Multishot (Fire at Will): 165% weapon damage over almost the entire screen (one sided cone) for 20 hatred. No passives used.

    Two multishots = one cluster in terms of Hatred, which means 330% weapon damage to a huge area vs 230% weapon damage in a narrow line.

    Plus with a higher hatred cost, you might get an extra Multishot in there (having 60 Hatred would be 3 multis or one cluster as an example).

    @Tobztar:

    Fan of Knives is fairly powerful, but the cooldown turns people off of it. If it were Hatred based, I'd love it.

    The range also goes against the typical Demon Hunter approach, which makes it an odd choice for the class. The 2x range rune makes it fit much better.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 8:27 AM PDT
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    I don't think anything needs nerf or buff, i just like it the way it is.
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    Before I begin: most of this (my post), if not all, has been mentioned before. I'm just adding my own voice to these matters.

    I have honestly not tried Smoke Screen at all, but based upon how you (and others) describe it I certainly think it needs to be nerfed/revamped.

    Smoke Screen is not the only survivability for a Demon Hunter, during Normal and Nightmare, Caltrops (especially Torturous Grounds) does a fine job at keeping the demons at bay but as some of you already mentioned they fail considerably at Hell (thus also Inferno) with their only use being the Bait the Trap rune which in turn makes you less mobile.

    In Hell I've managed very well to survive with Shadow Power (Gloom) and Preparation (Battle Scars). With increased discipline pool I can cast three Shadow Powers in a row, giving me a 65% damage reduction (and 20% life steal!) for 9 whole seconds. When the last one runs out I either Vault to safety (should have enough discipline left) or use my Preparation for a 60% instant heal and then I can use Shadow Power three times again.

    This maybe sounds pretty much like an "I Win" similar to Smoke Screen, but without enough damage or against certain types of mobs one can't "outheal" the damage received even when Shadow Power is active (which I think is okay since it's not a tanking class), thus making it balanced.

    TL;DR: Smoke Screen should be revamped, Caltrops needs to be more useful at higher difficulties and Shadow Power (Gloom) is surprisingly useful.
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    Before I begin: most of this (my post), if not all, has been mentioned before. I'm just adding my own voice to these matters.

    I have honestly not tried Smoke Screen at all, but based upon how you (and others) describe it I certainly think it needs to be nerfed/revamped.

    Smoke Screen is not the only survivability for a Demon Hunter, during Normal and Nightmare, Caltrops (especially Torturous Grounds) does a fine job at keeping the demons at bay but as some of you already mentioned they fail considerably at Hell (thus also Inferno) with their only use being the Bait the Trap rune which in turn makes you less mobile.

    In Hell I've managed very well to survive with Shadow Power (Gloom) and Preparation (Battle Scars). With increased discipline pool I can cast three Shadow Powers in a row, giving me a 65% damage reduction (and 20% life steal!) for 9 whole seconds. When the last one runs out I either Vault to safety (should have enough discipline left) or use my Preparation for a 60% instant heal and then I can use Shadow Power three times again.

    This maybe sounds pretty much like an "I Win" similar to Smoke Screen, but without enough damage or against certain types of mobs one can't "outheal" the damage received even when Shadow Power is active (which I think is okay since it's not a tanking class), thus making it balanced.

    TL;DR: Smoke Screen should be revamped, Caltrops needs to be more useful at higher difficulties and Shadow Power (Gloom) is surprisingly useful.


    You need to try inferno before you say this. I also never even touched smoke screen before Inferno, but the truth is it's simply impossible to survive from Act II onwards without it. Even with it on you will die hundreds and hundreds of times and be randomly one shot by stuff offscreen constantly. I had some pretty nice gear with a ton of health and it simply doesn't matter. Moving into an unexplored area without smoke screen up = instant death.

    Edit: I should probably also add that the bosses seem to be designed to require smoke screen. I simply don't see how some like Belial can be done without it in Inferno.
    Edited by Galimore#1357 on 5/20/2012 9:58 AM PDT
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    Weak:
  • Fan of Knives - Cooldown is too long for it to be worthwhile. Even if you hit enemies with it you are too close to get out of range of their melee attacks and will probably die.
  • Caltrops - Been stated, enemies are unkiteable in hell+
  • Entangling Shot - weak damage, takes too long to slow second target, basically worthless v. mobs of enemies.
  • Grenades - Too short range / unreliable.
  • Strafe - Poor damage, can't kite, basically worthless for anything other than breaking jars.
  • Rapid Fire - Turns you into a turret, which does't move and will die.
  • Shadow Power - You can't do enough damage during the duration of the skill to get enough healing out of the paltry 20% life steal.
  • Evasive Fire - The "backflip" suffers from a lot of the problems of vault, and doesn't trigger in good enough ways (hard to explain).
  • Rain of Vengance - This seems like it's supposed to be our big dmg cooldown skill, akin to things like 7 sided strike, but doesn't do enough damage to justify the long cooldown.
  • Any "Life Steal" Rune - 1-2% of a skill's damage as healing isn't enough to justify a rune.
  • Vault - Reasons stated
  • Conditional Skills
  • Multishot - Basically only usable with fire at will. The base cost should probably be 30.
  • Sentry Turret - Can be used as a party support skills w/ the 15% shield or 1% heal per second. The damage is so bad as to be completely forgettable.
  • Familiar - Bat is good, particularly for a xbow build. Ferret is alright if you're just rofling easier zones for gold. All others suck.
  • Edited by Collateral#1954 on 5/20/2012 10:56 AM PDT
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    @Galimore: You are probably right, I am not yet in Inferno (currently past Izual in Hell) so I have no actual clue to what crazy damage I will get shoved in my face other than what other people tell me. :)

    But the issue still stands; balance the other abilities to improve the DH's survivability without making it dependent on Smoke Screen.
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    Posts: 196
    Anyone saying they should nerf SS shouldnt be playing a DH. rly, gtfo.

    Rather than nerfing SS they should buff all other skills so that im not forced to pick SS+Prep just to survive in Hell/Inferno. Btw, it doesnt make you invincible like most are saying, though it avoids a lot of stuff.

    ps: If you're at NM/Normal plz dont awnser me back, thx.

    If anything,

    Weak:
  • Fan of Knives - Cooldown is too long for it to be worthwhile. Even if you hit enemies with it you are too close to get out of range of their melee attacks and will probably die.
  • Caltrops - Been stated, enemies are unkiteable in hell+
  • Entangling Shot - weak damage, takes too long to slow second target, basically worthless v. mobs of enemies.
  • Grenades - Too short range / unreliable.
  • Strafe - Poor damage, can't kite, basically worthless for anything other than breaking jars.
  • Rapid Fire - Turns you into a turret, which does't move and will die.
  • Shadow Power - You can't do enough damage during the duration of the skill to get enough healing out of the paltry 20% life steal.
  • Evasive Fire - The "backflip" suffers from a lot of the problems of vault, and doesn't trigger in good enough ways (hard to explain).
  • Rain of Vengance - This seems like it's supposed to be our big dmg cooldown skill, akin to things like 7 sided strike, but doesn't do enough damage to justify the long cooldown.
  • Any "Life Steal" Rune - 1-2% of a skill's damage as healing isn't enough to justify a rune.
  • Vault - Reasons stated
  • Conditional Skills
  • Multishot - Basically only usable with fire at will. The base cost should probably be 30.
  • Sentry Turret - Can be used as a party support skills w/ the 15% shield or 1% heal per second. The damage is so bad as to be completely forgettable.
  • Familiar - Bat is good, particularly for a xbow build. Ferret is alright if you're just rofling easier zones for gold. All others suck.


  • Atleast this guy knows what he's talking about, great insight.
    Edited by blowurbrain#1741 on 5/20/2012 11:02 AM PDT
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    Posts: 73
    Unless we can tank half as effective as the barb and monk in inferno then you can start talking about SS nerf. Shadow power is laughable compare to Monk's healing that it isn't even worth putting on the skillbar, Vault cost is too high and slow isn't working at all in high difficulty. So instead of nerfing SS, how about buffing our other survival skills?
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    SS is fine as it is, seeing DH's are the most squishy of the 5 classes. Until people gear up into late Inferno equipment, I definitely see SS+Prep being the most popular, and indeed, the most crucial skills in any DH's list. Sure we'll see a few players claiming to be able to kite or play well enough to not require these spells, but they're probably in the top 0.1% (congrats to you people, I'd like to see a video of you guys soloing a group of Fast-affixed Soul Rippers).

    Collateral's pretty much summed up a good majority of my opinions of problematic skills as well.

    Also, I think quite a few people would agree with me on this, especially people who have just entered a new difficulty: Companions and Followers should not initiate attacks on Treasure Goblins unless the Goblins are already running around. One thing I've found out about Goblins is that they always never fail to run away from the player, and this allows me to herd them into areas I've already cleared for the kill, instead of pursuing the goblins into uncleared areas which could potentially be filled with things I shouldn't be running into.
    When I first entered Hell, I would just dismiss my follower, and reskill my companion as a way to dismiss it, but now that I'm 60, there's no way to dismiss the pet without losing my Nephalem Valor buffs.
    So yeah, do something about Companion/Follower aggro AI, or give us a way to dismiss the companion.
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    I don't get why people are so adamant about nerfing abilities, it's not like you are getting an advantage over anyone else and there currently isn't any PvP that they need to be balanced around. I agree that some abilities are useless and need a buff, but there is no point in nerfing abilities, especially defensive ones.
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    100 Blood Elf Death Knight
    20965
    Posts: 198
    I think the key is to make alternatives attractive by being useful, not by nerfing the only !@#$ that works.

    Other abilities should be brought up to the level of elemental arrow (1st, 2nd, and 5th runes).

    Additionally, we should have other ways to survive besides smoke screen/prep. As of now on inferno the only way to solo is to spam those two, that's it. One thing I can think of would be to give the wolf companion a taunt and a lot of health. This solves the issues of companion not being worthless (except for bat, which is awesome), and it gives us an alternative to ss spam.

    Also, I'd like to see ballistics brought back up to 100%, that'd cause all the rocket runes to inherently become more useful.

    Finally, I wouldn't mind seeing the cooldown on acrobatics vault lowered to 10 sec, but that might be too good.
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    Posts: 187
    Weak:
  • Fan of Knives - Cooldown is too long for it to be worthwhile. Even if you hit enemies with it you are too close to get out of range of their melee attacks and will probably die.
  • Caltrops - Been stated, enemies are unkiteable in hell+
  • Entangling Shot - weak damage, takes too long to slow second target, basically worthless v. mobs of enemies.
  • Grenades - Too short range / unreliable.
  • ...


    Thank you (as well as a few other recent posters) for a legit response to the thread that helps build it up. I do disagree on a couple points though:

    Multishot is great with Fire at Will, but the Discipline gain has a place too, if you want to focus on safety over damage output.

    Second, Entangling Shot is actually not bad. It (alongside Grenades) generates 6 hatred per attack (with one of its runes) instead of 3, making it my prefered primary going through Hell, since you waste less precious SS time generating Hatred. Also, when using Cull the Weak passive, it pretty much guarantees 15% bonus damage with every shot.

    ------------------------------------------

    I don't get why people are so adamant about nerfing abilities, it's not like you are getting an advantage over anyone else and there currently isn't any PvP that they need to be balanced around. I agree that some abilities are useless and need a buff, but there is no point in nerfing abilities, especially defensive ones.


    It helps legitimize what you're suggesting. If we only asked for buffs, we'd just look like we want to be supercharged or suck at the game (which too many people just assume over the internet anyway).

    In the case of SS, it's also about the skill not being used as intended. I have no problem with it being a central defensive ability, but its clearly designed to help you kite or escape (or revive), not stand in the middle of an army and tank. Demon Hunters aren't designed to do that, but the misuse of this ability is making it the most popular DH strategy.

    Let me reiterate, I'm not suggesting making SS crappy, or taking away the only way of playing a DH in inferno, I'm just saying it would be great if Blizzard could return it to its original purpose while still giving us Inferno options.
    Edited by IzzQuad#1537 on 5/20/2012 4:30 PM PDT
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    I think that Smoke Screen is probably fine, but Smoke Screen with Lingering Fog rune might need a nerf. Where in creation does another rune add 50% to the duration? Fifty percent!

    Lingering Fog should add another 0.5 seconds. It would make the rune still good, but not an auto choice.

    I think another solid problem is how insanely bad the other two skills are that are supposed to be the Demon Hunter's "Defensive" skills.

    Caltrops - does not even function at higher difficulties in the least. It's just a terrible skill. The sad part is that it SHOULD be awesome, but due to how they chose to handle slow mechanics (to prevent kiting, I suppose) it doesn't. I think there's a fundamental flaw in introducing a mechanic that you then immediately nerf into non-functionality at high difficulties. But that's the sort of thing that has flown.

    Shadow Power - So for 3 seconds I can regain 20% of my damage as life. Or for 3 seconds I can be invincible. Lemme think... Is it sad that they could increase the duration on this by 300% (to 12 seconds) and I might not even take it? Yeah, probably is.

    The demon hunter has a narrow build of options surrounded by a wasteland of terrible choices. And this is NOT something that other classes suffer from.

    P.S. This is not a "lrn2play" issue. No amount of that will make Fan of Knives a viable button, or Cluster Arrow not cost a fortune for very little payback, or Caltrops equal to Smoke Screen.
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