Diablo® III

How Diablo 3 can learn from Dark Souls

Posts: 198
I don't really know what to say other than this is a really bad idea. They both share similarities, but saying you should rip out the entire story of Diablo 3 just because Dark Souls doesn't really have one or doesn't attempt to present it to you is stupid.

Of all things that Dark Souls does good and you argue for the one thing it doesn't even really attempt to do.

The similarities between the 2 titles are that they are both co-op and are both designed to be played repeatedly. The one thing I think Diablo 3 could learn from it is that Dark Souls is actually challenging on your very first playthrough, whereas Diablo 3 is a cakewalk and anyone who can left click a mouse can beat it on normal.

The last thing that comes to mind when thinking about Dark Souls is the story. Hell, even in it's minimalist state, it still makes mistakes like when it says all the dragons were destroyed... okay well then why am I still fighting dragons?


You are of course entitled to your opinion, but if you think that Diablo 3 had a good story, and Dark Souls a bad one, you are in the minority.

A quick glance at the story forum is enough to see that the majority of players are highly unsatisfied with D3's plot. Even if you personally disliked Dark Souls' minimalistic style, it's hard to defend D3's cliche and highly intrusive storyline.

I'm not saying that the plot of D3 should be "ripped out," or that Blizzard should copy major elements from Dark Souls; you're confusing content and presentation here. Diablo's content could certainly be more original, but my main point is that the story would be serviceable if it was presented in a much more nuanced manner - and I think DS provides a good example of how to do this.

Even if you don't like Dark Souls, the arguments that I made should stand on their own. If there is a specific point that you take issue to, I'd be glad to hear your feedback, but just calling my post stupid isn't very useful.
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Ah, I see your point. The villains of the piece have almost no character to them. Or, at least, are very predictable. But then, all the demonic ones, at least, are bent on destroying the High Heavens as part of the Eternal War, and the Lesser Evils still seemingly want to use the people of Sactuary as tools in that war. Therefore, their motivations would be quite obvious.

However, I like the way that the Angels have been portrayed. Yes, they are stereotypical in that they are constantly battling the forces of the Burning Hells, but most of them are just as dismissing of humanity as the Demons are, and were narroly prevented from wiping them all out. They are alo bound by dogma, so you can't expect them to be much more fleshed out.

I think one point of it being the way it is, is that if you want in-depth character, you can read the books which delve into things more deeply than the game - Dark Souls doesn't have that option as far as I know, so has to have everything in the game.

Again, I could br wrong, but my impression of everything is that Humanity is returning to it's Nephalim roots, and the Nephalim were powerful enough to seriously threaten both the forces of the High Heavens and Burning Hells, and it was only because of the Worldstone that they became weak and easy prey. So, all it takes is one legendary hero in the right place at the right time to affect change. I'm no student of mythology, but I seem to recall great Greek heroes being able to do things that entire armies of normal humans could not
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Posts: 22
God, I've been kind of repeating this all over the story forums, but Blizzard's storytelling fell of a cliff ever since SC2 came out. Not a WoW player, but I've heard some sad things to. They used to be so good at creating super distinctive universes and now they've been all homogenized and filled with awful plot and character writing. It wouldn't be so bad if the standards weren't set beforehand, but to comparing SC2's story to SC1's is... :(. D3's hit me harder than SC2. I think that universe is beyond repair at this point.
Edited by Gosha#1601 on 5/24/2012 4:27 AM PDT
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Posts: 40
If Diablo 3 had someone willing to even just put as much thought into the plot as you have it would have been so much better. What we ended up with is a poor excuse for a compelling storyline, and destroyed everything that had been built up plotwise prior. I literally feel it ruined the atmosphere and lore of the series entirely.
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Posts: 838
Shen and Kulle are the best characters in the game.

OP is spot on - this game is supposed to be 'dark' and it doesn't capture any of that. Demon's Souls (the only one I played) captures that creepiness perfectly. The story seems like it was barely thought about and rushed/not fleshed out in the least. No characterization, cheesy dialogue. However, I do like the follower conversations. Those are the only enjoyable dialogues in the game, aside from Shen and Kulle.
Edited by Fuggernaut#1428 on 5/24/2012 6:54 AM PDT
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I don't really know what to say other than this is a really bad idea. They both share similarities, but saying you should rip out the entire story of Diablo 3 just because Dark Souls doesn't really have one or doesn't attempt to present it to you is stupid.

Of all things that Dark Souls does good and you argue for the one thing it doesn't even really attempt to do.

The similarities between the 2 titles are that they are both co-op and are both designed to be played repeatedly. The one thing I think Diablo 3 could learn from it is that Dark Souls is actually challenging on your very first playthrough, whereas Diablo 3 is a cakewalk and anyone who can left click a mouse can beat it on normal.

The last thing that comes to mind when thinking about Dark Souls is the story. Hell, even in it's minimalist state, it still makes mistakes like when it says all the dragons were destroyed... okay well then why am I still fighting dragons?


It's not a dragon, it's a drake. Dragons are much bigger. Dark Souls actually has a brilliant story, in terms of how it enhances the game and creates an interactive experience, , but it needs a couple play thrus to get it all.
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I agree with all of the OP's points except for the removal of CGI cutscenes.

My problem with D3's story is that after watching the cinematics, the in-game cutscenes fell completely flat and THESE are what I would remove. The cinematics are masterfully done and for me they added a ton of atmosphere to the game, which was then completely neutered by the cheesy in-game cutscenes & dialogue.

The major plot points for Cain & Adria should have been done in CGI, not in-game, as it completely cheapened these events.

Also can't agree more about the bosses. D3 turned what used to be mysterious and menacing demon overlords into Saturday morning caricatures (cinematics aside). The constant taunting at the end of the game removed any suspense or feeling of danger the player might have had since IMO the dialogue/voice acting sounded really amateurish.

This was probably my greatest disappointment about the story- in D1 & D2 the demon bosses were menacing and the embodiment of pure evil; in D3 they are reduced to stereotypical bad guys with cheesy dialogue.

I love the gameplay of D3 but really wish they'd fleshed out the campaign more, it's too short and the story feels too rushed without building any real suspense.
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85 Human Warrior
9990
Posts: 11,698
OP wanted the LORDS OF HELL to be made more sympathetic?

All my hate to this generation. Not everything has to be a shade of gray.
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Posts: 198
OP wanted the LORDS OF HELL to be made more sympathetic?

All my hate to this generation. Not everything has to be a shade of gray.


Read my post carefully. I never said that all of the one-dimensional characters should be removed from the game. Actually, the majority of bosses in Dark Souls were unambiguous bad guys (taurus, gargoyles, capra, firesage, etc). But there was a balance that D3 severely lacks.

Each of the four act bosses in D3 are evil demons, and the vast majority of lesser bosses are just evil undead, evil skeletons, etc. (with maybe a few exceptions). I'm not saying that Diablo's status as an ultimate evil should be compromised, but there should at least be some level of diversity in the preceding acts.
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I agree with just about everything you've said besides the thing about the cinematics.

Blizzard's cinematics have ALWAYS set the stage for their lore and they've done it flawlessly time and time again. They present the story in ways that no other franchise has never been able to. Sadly, everything else they've done in their recent games ends up drawing away from the cinematics or, in the case of diablo 3, the cinematics themselves are telling a very uninteresting and cliche story.
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85 Undead Rogue
2940
Posts: 166
As far as story goes, the cutscenes were the best part of the game.

the case of diablo 3, the cinematics themselves are telling a very uninteresting and cliche story


Well the final one was definitely held back by the story, but the scene involving Cain's funeral was brilliant and moving. A grief stricken Leah lashes out at Tyrael, unaware that he chose humanity over his own kind to the point of becoming mortal... and showing a flashback of Tyrael clashing with Imperius, who previously considered him an ally/friend and now looks at him as a traitor, further illustrating the gravity of his decision.

Why he became head of the council with no complaints at the end is beyond me....
Edited by Cynicist#1393 on 5/24/2012 2:25 PM PDT
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Posts: 198
Those defending the cinematics make a good point. Even if they aren't removed, though, I still think they could be greatly improved (in terms of content, of course - the animation is as fantastic as always)

The last cinematic, for instance, felt very awkward and out of place, and the class-specific cutscenes were all rather boring and similar.
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Posts: 2,311
I can agree with most of your points.
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Posts: 811
Wait a minute...Dark souls had a plot?

No, seriously. I know seathe and the nito plague guy and whatever the hell those other dudes were killed some dragons and stuff, and that the hero is probably the descendant of the pygmy dude.
But other than what they tell you at the very beginning, there isn't really anything there.

All I remember doing is killing all of them for no discernible reason.

Demons souls had a better plot, but even that was lacking in the story department.

Those are both great games, the gameplay is awesome, the game is difficult, there's a TON of praising to do for Demon's souls and Dark souls. but as that guy said.



Of all things that Dark Souls does good and you argue for the one thing it doesn't even really attempt to do.



Yeah, the plot for those games is pretty bare to the bone.
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Posts: 198
I think "plot" was the wrong word choice. It's the atmosphere that Dark Souls does best, and that D3 most severely lacks.
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6/8 seem kind of pointless..

as much as diablo 3 could find improvements with the way dark souls tells its story, at its heart diablo is about battering a zillion demons with a big hammer and we want that effect in it's gameplay.

They should try to flesh out more of the world though, I thought the characters were pretty interesting if you take the time to talk to them same with picking up the journals but in the end I missed like 90% of the information because I was too busy playing co-op and didn't have time to take it all in.
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Wait a minute...Dark souls had a plot?

No, seriously. I know seathe and the nito plague guy and whatever the hell those other dudes were killed some dragons and stuff, and that the hero is probably the descendant of the pygmy dude.
But other than what they tell you at the very beginning, there isn't really anything there.

All I remember doing is killing all of them for no discernible reason.

Demons souls had a better plot, but even that was lacking in the story department.

Those are both great games, the gameplay is awesome, the game is difficult, there's a TON of praising to do for Demon's souls and Dark souls. but as that guy said.



Of all things that Dark Souls does good and you argue for the one thing it doesn't even really attempt to do.



Yeah, the plot for those games is pretty bare to the bone.


I don't think you guys know what a plot is, its just the sequence of events that happens...

dark souls probably has a bigger plot but less story, diablo 3 has more story but a smaller plot.
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100 Human Paladin
18485
Posts: 8,264
05/22/2012 01:41 PMPosted by Quark
D3's cutscenes are awesome. And that makes me sad, because Blizzard's awesomeness reserves could be put to much better use elsewhere. For me, each wrinkle on Decard Cain's painstakingly crafted face represents a quest, or a boss, or a monk animation that will never be.


Remember that hundreds of people work on games like this. Blizzard has a team of specialists who work exclusively on cinematics; quests, bosses and game animations are done by different people.
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I agree almost completely (don't know enough about resource allocation in a game company to agree there). Very well thought out and written post.

I truly am disappointed that Diablo 3 did not give me the same feeling Diablo 2 did. Demons Souls and Dark Souls gave me that feeling. Diablo 3 just is all technique and no heart. I had very little emotional response to this game. Granted I have only beaten normal, but I don't suspect I will fear whats next, or sense the despair going through harder difficulties like I did in D2 or even the normal difficulty in Demon/Dark Souls.
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