Diablo® III

PSA: Dodge does not have diminishing returns

Dodge does not have diminishing returns. In fact, each additional % of dodge equipment confers a larger benefit than the % before it.

The Basics (aka TL;DR, "I'll trust that math is a thing"):
- Dodge is multiplicative, not additive. This is not the same thing as having diminishing returns.
- Diminishing returns applies where each additional point confers a smaller benefit than the point before it. For example, Magic Find in Diablo 2 had diminishing returns - the more you added, the less each additional point was helping you.
- Dodge experiences the opposite of diminishing returns. Each additional 1% of dodge confers a larger benefit to the character than the point before it did.
- This doesn't mean that a maxed dodge character is better than a maxed armor or maxed resists character. Those other stats ALSO experience the same geometric growth in value (that is to say, they similarly DO NOT have diminishing returns). The highest average effective health is likely going to come from a balance of all three. But avoiding dodge because you think (erroneously) that it experiences diminishing returns is a mistake.
- Dodge is still probably worse than resists and armor, as those bonuses always apply, whereas dodge relies in part on chance. But, the highest average effective health will be achieved by balancing all three, along with DPS and vitality.

For those who want the math:

To understand this concept, you must understand the impact dodge has on your character's effective health. Effective health is how much damage an enemy must do to kill you. It is not the red health globe on the left of the screen, and it is not displayed anywhere in the game. To calculate this (considering only dodge), you multiply your health by 1/(1-d), where d is a number between 0 and 1 representing your dodge chance (ie 50% dodge is .5). Each piece of dodge equipment will do this separately (hence, the multiplicative part).

The simplest example is to imagine a character with 100 health, no other damage reduction, and two rings with 5% dodge each.

- Equipping ring one will do the following: Displayed dodge chance goes up from 0% to 5%, effective health goes from 100 to (100 * 1/(1-.05) = ) 105.263. You have gained 5.263 effective health from your first 5% of dodge.

- Equipping ring two will do the following: Displayed dodge chance goes up from 5% to 9.75%. This is where the logical error comes in - it is natural to assume that this second ring did less for you than the first one did, because the displayed number increased by only 4.75% (diminishing returns). This is incorrect. Your effective health goes from 105.263 to (100 * 1/(1-.0975) = ) 110.80. You have gained 5.53 effective health from your second ring, more than the 5.236 that the first ring gave you!

Conclusion: Dodge does not experience diminishing returns.

Dexterity DOES have diminishing returns:

DEX to dodge:
0 - 100 gives 0.1%
100 - 500 gives 0.025%
500 - 1000 gives 0.02%
1000 - 8000 gives 0.01%

Summed up:
100 dex-->10%
500 dex-->20%
1000dex-->30%
2000dex--->40%
3000dex--->50%
Edited by tacothedeep#1161 on 5/28/2012 4:10 PM PDT
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One bump, then I'm done :)
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thanks!
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Unfortunately people will still spew that armor, resist, and dodge have DR and they'll spout some stupid one liner they came up with like "oh, the DR for resists kicks in at 800."
Edited by Kajean#1993 on 5/28/2012 3:11 PM PDT
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Interesting :)
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I requested a sticky for this. Should also put that you aren't going to freaking see an exact 15% increase to your dodge chance by using Mantra of Evasion. And that Time of Need doesn't give a straight 20% increase to damage reduced by resists. Cause I'm tired of seeing all these posts about this stuff.
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Verrrrry interesting.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9635
Posts: 1,849
Something tells me that your campaign to educate the masses will fail...
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I still think it's an expensive stat for what it does (based on chance, after all).

Wouldn't you rather have more resists/more armor since they also increase geometrically and apply with every single hit that monsters make to you? eHP is nice and all but real world situations verify that dodge is the worst stat of the three.

The PSA should be to avoid dodge and stack the others (unless dodge basically comes from piggybacking from your damage stat of dexterity), shouldn't it?
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I still think it's an expensive stat for what it does (based on chance, after all).

Wouldn't you rather have more resists/more armor since they also increase geometrically and apply with every single hit that monsters make to you? eHP is nice and all but real world situations verify that dodge is the worst stat of the three.

The PSA should be to avoid dodge and stack the others (unless dodge basically comes from piggybacking from your damage stat of dexterity), shouldn't it?


That's what he says in his post.
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Posts: 39
dodge itself doesnt have diminshing returns but the dext to stack to gain dodge does.

http://blackrabbit2999.blogspot.com/2012/05/diablo-3-game-mechanics-complete-guide.html

Dodge

Dodge is a percentage chance to avoid all damage of an an attack. You can dodge melee, ranged and magical missile. It was stated that ground based (area) attacks can also be dodged (need confirmation). Dodge increases through dexterity.

DEX to dodge:
0 - 100 gives 0.1%
100 - 500 gives 0.025%
500 - 1000 gives 0.02%
1000 - 8000 gives 0.01%

Summed up:
100 dex-->10%
500 dex-->20%
1000dex-->30%
2000dex--->40%
3000dex--->50%
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Posts: 19
Dodge does not have DR, but Resistance and Armor does. Even Magic find only have DR on on items above blue. Dodge DR is level based like the poster before stated.

You post is wrong in so many places that even when your right it calls it all into questions.
Do some research before just typing anything.

And your math is just stupid. Effective health is just a dumb idea. Effect health assumes the law of average is real and every thing is always average. Got with 90% dodge and have and effective health of 200K and you will get 1 shotted 1 in 10 times. That because effective health works only with damage mitigation not with damage avoidance.
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Posts: 41
what ppl think of when they think of DR is actually percents like when you go from 10k armor to 14k you only go up 4-5% up its still a ton, there isn't actually any diminishing returns on any form of aspects in this game whether it be dodge, resistance, and armor. Each point gives you effective health and thats what ppl fail to realize in this game, effective health is how you live through each act. This is why balancing out and having a ton of EVERY form of mitigation/avoidance/hps/health per hit/ etc is how you push your character above and beyond to each act. TLDR: Nothing DRS its just a smaller percent but you still get same effective hp.
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dodge itself doesnt have diminshing returns but the dext to stack to gain dodge does.

http://blackrabbit2999.blogspot.com/2012/05/diablo-3-game-mechanics-complete-guide.html

Dodge

Dodge is a percentage chance to avoid all damage of an an attack. You can dodge melee, ranged and magical missile. It was stated that ground based (area) attacks can also be dodged (need confirmation). Dodge increases through dexterity.

DEX to dodge:
0 - 100 gives 0.1%
100 - 500 gives 0.025%
500 - 1000 gives 0.02%
1000 - 8000 gives 0.01%

Summed up:
100 dex-->10%
500 dex-->20%
1000dex-->30%
2000dex--->40%
3000dex--->50%


This is a great point, and I'll add it to the original post. Dexterity is not the best way to add dodge as a result, though dexterity is obviously attractive for other reasons (+%dmg, +armor through seize the initiative).
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Dodge does not have DR, but Resistance and Armor does. Even Magic find only have DR on on items above blue. Dodge DR is level based like the poster before stated.

You post is wrong in so many places that even when your right it calls it all into questions.
Do some research before just typing anything.

And your math is just stupid. Effective health is just a dumb idea. Effect health assumes the law of average is real and every thing is always average. Got with 90% dodge and have and effective health of 200K and you will get 1 shotted 1 in 10 times. That because effective health works only with damage mitigation not with damage avoidance.


Good, it's always effective to argue with hard math through blind restatement of the logic(?) the math disproves. Effective health is not a dumb idea - it's a pretty standard way to figure out the impact various damage reduction sources has on your health pool. If you google around, most (ahem) advanced D3 forums now have threads about effective health calculators. They all include dodge in the calculations, though your point about having 90% dodge and still getting one shotted is salient - having ONLY dodge as a means to mitigate damage is a poor choice, but I stated as much in the original post.
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People saying resists and armor have a DR are like people saying vit has a DR. Vitality does give you less of an % increase to your max health pool per point because you will have more and more health as you go higher, but you still get the flat 36 (? I think this is the number) health per point. Resists and armor also give you a flat increase in effective health, but the % damage reduction decreases.

An actual Diminishing Return would be if vitality started giving 0.01 less health per point you had.
Edited by Kajean#1993 on 5/28/2012 4:21 PM PDT
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Posts: 41
agreed with post above me
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73 Troll Druid
0
Posts: 98
People saying resists and armor have a DR are like people saying vit has a DR. Vitality does give you less of an % increase to your max health pool per point because you will have more and more health as you go higher, but you still get the flat 36 (? I think this is the number) health per point. Resists and armor also give you a flat increase in effective health, but the % damage reduction decreases.

An actual Diminishing Return would be if vitality started giving 0.01 less health per point you had.


but increasing vit does not increase eHP its actual hp, effective HP as stated is an assumption based on rng and will not always be constant.

You cannot say Vit gives less hp (%) because your normal gets higher because that's just retarded it's relative. it retains 100% of its value 1 vit = 35 regardless if you have 10k hp or 30khp. You cannot tie that into its value towards current max hp saying oh well 50 vit is only a 8% increase instead of an 18% increase if you had lower hp.

Thats is like saying dex gets worse as you get a better weapon.

Dodge is added multiplicatively, 15% on 50% is not 65% as we all know
if Diminishing returns -were- in this game 15%dodge will be less, or Point for Point of Dex = dodge would be less the higher it goes..
In a sense either way you look at it both scenarios will get reduced you guys are stressing over which law it falls under, regardless you dont retain 100% of the value.
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05/28/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Hokoha
if Diminishing returns -were- in this game 15%dodge will be less, or Point for Point of Dex = dodge would be less the higher it goes..


This part is actually true though - Dex does provide a diminishing boost to Dodge itself. In some sense, if we want to jump on the "monk is broken" bandwagon, this should be another entry in the conspiracy theory, as monks are the only class whose main stat offers diminishing returns to the non-damage attribute it is tied to. This might be good suggestion to correct the monk's troubles in Inferno, actually, by correcting that scale and letting monks get to the high 60s in dodge % more easily.
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Posts: 140
except that dodge does have diminishing returns? i have 32.6% dodge, but when i use the passive dual-wield (should be 15%) i only have 42.7%? Is this a bug or just diminishing returns?
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