Diablo® III

Dodge Stacking: How it Works and Why

I keeps seeing a lot of misinformation about how dodge works so I thought I would take a moment to post a little insight into it.

First of all, dodge can never reach 100%. I don't know what the dexterity cap to scaling is, but even if it were at 90%, you still could not reach 100% dodge no matter what you did. Secondly, dodge does not stack additively. This goes hand-in-hand with the first rule. If it did, you would quickly reach over 100% dodge and that quite frankly is impossible. And lastly, dodge bonuses do not stack by generic multiplicity for the same reasons they don't stack additively. If you could increase your dodge by 30%, then you'd only need ~77% to reach 100% dodge (~0.77 * 1.3 = 1.00). So that begs the question...

How does Dodge stack?
First of all, to answer this we really need to shift our focus from a "chance to dodge" to a "chance to be hit." If you have 30% dodge, then you have a 70% chance to be hit. Pretty simple right? (100% - 30% = 70%) This is a really important factor because your chance to be hit does stack multiplicatively, meaning you simply multiply all these chances together to find out the total chance to be hit.

Let's do an example real quick. First, we'll assume we have a base of 35% dodge and we want to know what our bonus is when Mantra of Evasion is up and then we'll add to that for when we are attacking with the Fists of Thunder: Lightning Flash rune.

So we'll start out with base dodge:
1) 35% dodge = 65% chance to be hit.

Mantra of Evasion has a 15% dodge bonus:
2) 15% dodge = 85% chance to be hit.

Our total chance to be hit with our base dodge and our Mantra of Evasion up then becomes:
3) 0.35 * 0.85 = 0.5525 or 55.25%

We need to convert that back to "Dodge Chance" if you really want to know that total so:
100% - 55.25% = 44.75%

For all bonuses, they stack in the same way. To find what it is while attack with Fists of Thunder (16% dodge or 84% chance to be hit), we'll just re-do step 3:
3) 0.35 * 0.85 * 0.84 = 46.41% chance to be hit or 53.59% Dodge chance

If you have more effects, (say those of Cyclone Strike or whatever), you would just keep stacking them into step 3. Why do they do this you may ask? Well, there is no way to make your dodge reach 100% this way. It is mathematically impossible and they don't want people to be able to dodge every attack and become essentially invincible.

I hope this clears some of the confusion because the wording in the abilities does not make the workings of this mechanics very obvious. In fact, I'd say the wording is the most confusing part about it.
Edited by aceofsween#1172 on 5/23/2012 7:31 PM PDT
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There's a mistake.

Should be:

1) 45% dodge = 55% chance to be hit

Changes the math afterwards too.
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There's a mistake.

Should be:

1) 45% dodge = 55% chance to be hit

Changes the math afterwards too.


Derpa derp? Meant for it to be a 35% chance...
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Posts: 8
Thanks for posting this! It's important information for people to know. Crucially, one should note that dodge does not suffer from diminishing returns. Every additional amount of dodge increases one's survivability (or "effective health" in WoW terms) by a linear amount. However, dodge is a very "bursty" way of mitigating damage... so how are we to compensate for that?
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I think you got the numbers wrong in (3). 0.35 * 0.85 ought to be 0.65 * 0.85, though your result, 0.5525, is the correct one. Editing that for clarity might be helpful, however.
Edited by AlphaMagnum#1559 on 5/23/2012 7:46 PM PDT
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85 Gnome Death Knight
6435
Posts: 305
Nice post, the only problem with it is you didn't specify which abilities are additive because some of them are. All you have to do is read your stat page to figure that one out...
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Great Post. Thanks
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05/23/2012 07:45 PMPosted by AlphaMagnum
I think you got the numbers wrong in (3). 0.35 * 0.85 ought to be 0.65 * 0.85, though your result, 0.5525, is the correct one. Editing that for clarity might be helpful, however.


Yeah, I was wondering why you multiplied the dodge to the Chance to be Hit.
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When the mob was about to hit you for 50k, and you see DODGE, thats never a bad time. I do agree you shouldn't depend on it, but it is quite useful when it works and even going from say 33 to 50%(from buffs) means you go from a 1 in 3 chance to a 1 in 2. Thats fairly huge.
Edited by Quillim#1459 on 5/30/2012 8:34 AM PDT
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You've got you base dodge chance to dodge; if that doesn't work, you've got a 15% chance to dodge from MoE; if you have the active up, and you didn't doge from your base dodge or base MoE, you have another 15% chance to dodge.

The character sheet cuts out the middleman for you and just tells you the end result percentage. Its not really diminishing returns... its just the way different effects combine. If you add 1500 dex (and were already over 1000), that will add 15% on the sheet as you expect. There isn't a curve where higher dodge percentage just gets forcefully reduced*.

The apparent reduced return is just from different effects combining multiplicatively, as they should to avoid breaking the game. That 10% on the MoE active is because the active effect and the passive effect are two different effects -- it isn't temporarily increasing the passive effect to 30%. That would actually be more valuable, but is tough to implement properly... how do you show the cooldown?

This is all actually a good thing... if you want to be a badass, you don't want dodge to be your ultimate god stat. As dexterity goes up and your base dodge goes up, other dodge effects become less valuable, so you change those other dodge increases to other abilities/runes. You get to ditch lightning flash for some more damage or some other interesting effect. You can switch over from 20% armor on MoE to 20% resist on MoH, or once your resists are really solid, snag 10% damage reduction on MoConviction... baller. Thats a fun day.

* as far as I know... it sounds like it stays at 0.01 per dex all the way up to 100% dodge, or whatever the hard cap may be.

(edit)
yeah sorry, kindof rehashing... originally was more of a reply to Kj991 being wrong.
Edited by stampy#1637 on 5/30/2012 8:38 AM PDT
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So how much dodge do you guys recommend having before it's value decreases?

Edit: also would Deadly Reach's Keen rune( adds 50% extra armor) vs Crippling Waves rune(decrease monster damage) have more value?
Edited by Ifrit#1574 on 5/30/2012 8:39 AM PDT
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So is it safe to say, due to DIMINISHED VALUATION.. it makes little to sense to try to go all out and try to be DODGE MAN? It looks like getting some form of dodge is important, but there are probably better solutions than trying to get it with each your passives, mantras, gear, and other skills.
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Posts: 19
Dodge has diminishing value not diminishing returns, but in the end it very similar.
Over 1000 dodge and you get .01% for every point of dex. Under 1000 its a lot higher

This video goes in to armor, resistance and dodge
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9uVdmdzfb0
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05/30/2012 08:36 AMPosted by Ifrit
So how much dodge do you guys recommend having before it's value decreases?


the value per result percentage point of dodge doesn't really decrease as it gets higher... just, the value of a second dodge effect (like fist of thunder/lightning flash) becomes less as your base dodge gets higher.

still, dodge is a different animal than armor/resist/hp (effective hp)... no matter how high it gets short of 100%, you will still get hit sometimes, and you kinda want to survive the times you do get hit. dodge is good for abilities where you can't get armor/resist, or you cant get it alongside something else you want... e.g., 50% armor boost is probably outright always better than 16% dodge; but you could make an argument for 16% dodge on all hits of vs. 50% armor on third hit, or you might just like FoT better than deadly reach (not an argument for this thread :) )

(edit) wow, im the big winner, i put the lightning flash vs keen eye in before your edit :)
Edited by stampy#1637 on 5/30/2012 8:46 AM PDT
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I depend on dodge. Mine is currently around 65% when I'm buffed. High dodge + Mantra of Evasion with Backlash is a great combo.

The high dodge has kept me alive in Inferno. I go down to 20-40% HP when I get hit by an elite, but usually I can heal up with other skills before they strike me again.
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So how much dodge do you guys recommend having before it's value decreases?

Edit: also would Deadly Reach's Keen rune( adds 50% extra armor) vs Crippling Waves rune(decrease monster damage) have more value?


Those would be determanied on what play style you are going for. You always have armor active (which also has DR btw) but you need crippling wave to hit in order to get that damage reduction.

you want a balance of everything
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05/30/2012 08:45 AMPosted by stampy
So how much dodge do you guys recommend having before it's value decreases?


the value per result percentage point of dodge doesn't really decrease as it gets higher... just, the value of a second dodge effect (like fist of thunder/lightning flash) becomes less as your base dodge gets higher.

still, dodge is a different animal than armor/resist/hp (effective hp)... no matter how high it gets short of 100%, you will still get hit sometimes, and you kinda want to survive the times you do get hit. dodge is good for abilities where you can't get armor/resist, or you cant get it alongside something else you want... e.g., 50% armor boost is probably outright always better than 16% dodge; but you could make an argument for 16% dodge on all hits of vs. 50% armor on third hit, or you might just like FoT better than deadly reach (not an argument for this thread :) )

(edit) wow, im the big winner, i put the lightning flash vs keen eye in before your edit :)


So how much dodge do you guys recommend having before it's value decreases?

Edit: also would Deadly Reach's Keen rune( adds 50% extra armor) vs Crippling Waves rune(decrease monster damage) have more value?


Those would be determanied on what play style you are going for. You always have armor active (which also has DR btw) but you need crippling wave to hit in order to get that damage reduction.

you want a balance of everything


Great thanks for reply, this is why I re-rolled from Wizz. Monk might be harder but just so much more interesting.
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