Diablo® III

I really refuse THAT was tyrael

Posts: 873
They made Tyrael like Captain David Anderson of Mass Eject 3 fame! I literally puked.
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Posts: 593
05/19/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Sagramore
Yeah the character you play is just some random guy who kills every prime evil combined, never once complaining (?). I dont see why a former ARCHANGEL OF JUSTICE cant be a badass in mortal form too.

Because Diablo kicked down the door to his home and did naughty things that are censored on this forum, to it.


My character is a barbarian. Baal Kicked down the door to MY Home and did naughty things to it.

Tyrael can grow a pair!
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What if Gandalf suddenly became a man, would he be the same?


In Lord of the Rings, Gandalf was indeed a man. In fact, his story is nearly identical to that of Tyrael. He chose to leave behind his angelic powers, immortality, the Undying Lands, to aid the world of men.
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Posts: 101
In Diablo 3 he is just a man with the entire range of human emotions to boot.


And every single ONE of those emotions is apparently being a whiny baby. Just because someone is a human doesn't mean that they should break down crying or be a wuss, no matter how you explain it: This is the same reason why people thought it was idiotic that samus broke down crying in Other M: It made no sense for our grizzled hero to do that.

I mean, We don't see Captain america suddenly break down whining over how bad the situation is; We don't see Master chief break down crying over how he's screwing up.

Just because your a human is no excuse to be such a baby when you were so awesome before.


When you experience an apocalypse and genocide of your people and dont break down, come talk to us. Also your examples are garbage, they are complete mis-representations of what a normal person would do in that situation, also in both those situations, neither of those hero's are "normal" human beings. Tyrael is just human now, he has no super powers, no strength, nothing, just a flashy sword and armor.
Edited by Sharpe#1401 on 5/20/2012 5:14 PM PDT
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Posts: 7

What if Gandalf suddenly became a man, would he be the same?


In Lord of the Rings, Gandalf was indeed a man. In fact, his story is nearly identical to that of Tyrael. He chose to leave behind his angelic powers, immortality, the Undying Lands, to aid the world of men.


Are you dense? No, Gandalf did not "give up immortality, powers, and heaven" to aid men. He was one of several angels asked to take on human form to diguise them from sauron's eyes so they could aid the world of men. But they still had their powers, they still knew they would return to heaven, as gandalf does with the elves when the war is ended and the world is at peace. Gandalf was not a fallen angel, very different case.

But have to say, think even if gandalf did lose all his powers, he would be less of a !@#$% then tyrael was.
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90 Orc Hunter
12545
Posts: 315
But remember, Gandalf wasn't human either.

What if Gandalf suddenly became a man, would he be the same?


As a writer, then, have some motive to change Gandalf into a man; don't do it "just because." In Diablo 3, Tyrael as a human doesn't DO anything. He holds no purpose. Whereas, in Diablo 2 (and now the widened Diablo universe) he had a very crucial, pivotal role. It was like someone at Blizz said "Hey! You know what would be cool? If we made Tyrael a fallen ange/human!" and then everyone agreed. It's a cool idea on the surface, but what's the reason? I see no point in making him human, other than the wow factor.
Edited by SkinNBones#1563 on 5/21/2012 1:06 AM PDT
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99 Troll Shaman
10500
Posts: 32
Tyrael felt bad because it dawned on him that this whole thing was his fault. He interfered with the mortals, he introduced the soulstones, his lieutenant Izual taught the demons to manipulate the stones, he shattered the Worldstone and then he helped inadvertently create the Prime Evil. I think one quick moment of pause for Tyrael was in order while my witch doctor saved Hope from Despair.
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05/19/2012 12:04 PMPosted by Sagramore
Yeah the character you play is just some random guy who kills every prime evil combined, never once complaining (?). I dont see why a former ARCHANGEL OF JUSTICE cant be a badass in mortal form too.

Because Diablo kicked down the door to his home and did naughty things that are censored on this forum, to it.


Which the Hells have been doing to sanctuary for a long !@# time.
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05/19/2012 10:18 AMPosted by aleksandor
In Diablo 3 he is just a man with the entire range of human emotions to boot.


And every single ONE of those emotions is apparently being a whiny baby. Just because someone is a human doesn't mean that they should break down crying or be a wuss, no matter how you explain it: This is the same reason why people thought it was idiotic that samus broke down crying in Other M: It made no sense for our grizzled hero to do that.

I mean, We don't see Captain america suddenly break down whining over how bad the situation is; We don't see Master chief break down crying over how he's screwing up.

Just because your a human is no excuse to be such a baby when you were so awesome before.


How would you know? You've been a human all your life so your opinion is automatically biased.
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Didn't read all of the replies, but I agree with the OP. The overall feel of Tyrael's character just doesn't resonate the same person from D2 or even the novels.

That solid, resolute character we've known kind of vanished after the destruction of the Worldstone. D3 really seemed to be focused on the idea of 'sacrifice' and 'martyrdom' throughout the game.

I'm really hoping we see some sort of 'Redemption' theme in the expansions and maybe see Tyrael return to his role as a proper Archangel of some sort (though I have my fingers crossed for Justice!).
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Anyone see that old Star Trek where Data turns on his emotions chip? Yeah, Tyrael needs a day to get used to it; the man has balls, just needs to learn how to use them. Assume being "human" is like PMS for angels, hormones and mood swings a-plenty.

Also, his being mortal isn't the same mortal we likely predict. He DID fall from the sky in a fireball and blast a hole through multiple stone floors of a monastery with his body only to have temporary amnesia as he shakes it off without a scratch. He's probably still powerful, yet ages.
Did you ever die on the bridge crossing to the Arreat Crater and watch him just cut down mobs on his own while he waits for you? The man is beastly.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
Posts: 2,745
He became a coward. I kept thinking all the time that my demon hunter would tell him:
"Get off my way you deserter, i have important matters o discuss with Diablo!"
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90 Troll Mage
10840
Posts: 3
It's really not that hard to understand his character. There is only one part where Tyrael acts like a crying child, and it's easily justifiable if you know anything about character development in writing. If you actually read any of the lore, it's pretty straightforward.

First, Tyrael joins the human race, but as a fully formed adult. While I won't rule out that Angels have some level of emotion, they are clearly unlike humans. They have a difficult time empathizing with the human condition, which is first shown by the fact that they had to vote on whether or not to destroy them in the first place. Tyrael was a bit behind on the emotional learning curve compared to humans who grow up and deal with the pain of mortal life from the moment they are born.

Next, Tyrael doesn't really break down until Hope is captured, which happened after the gates of Heaven were busted down. If you read the lore, the gates of Heaven were never busted down before (even though the Prime Evils came close). Even so, the thing that pushed him over the edge was the loss of Hope.

Even if he wasn't an angel any longer, he still understood the importance of Hope, since that is more than just her name. She is the embodiment of hope, so the loss of Hope is both figurative and literal. Tyrael snaps back not too long after she is recovered.

The fact of the matter is that Blizzard wanted to have Tyrael to be a dynamic rather than static character because the people playing the game are humans. They want people to be able to relate to this character.

Maybe the mistake Blizzard made was trying their hand at improving the quality of writing for an audience that largely has a shallow understanding of what makes good writing. It doesn't matter if the writing is good or bad, because I highly doubt most of the people playing this game care more than running around killing stuff and collecting loot.

If you don't like Blizzard's ability to tell a story, then there's always these things called books. Read a few.
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Maybe the mistake Blizzard made was trying their hand at improving the quality of writing for an audience that largely has a shallow understanding of what makes good writing. It doesn't matter if the writing is good or bad, because I highly doubt most of the people playing this game care more than running around killing stuff and collecting loot.


....are you kidding me? Have you read any of the story threads? Clearly people care if the story is good or bad because people hated the horrible story. The mistake Blizzard made wasn't trying to improve the quality of writing - it was dumbing down the writing beneath the plot of an average Scooby Doo episode. And that includes Tyrael's BS storyline in this game.

What we saw of Tyrael in Diablo 2 felt like just a glimpse that suggested immense, raw, incomprehensible power. We didn't really know a whole lot about him, except that he empathized with mortals, he was a bit of a rebel, and he was a bada$$ with wings made of pure light. Tyrael was powerful enough to hold off Tal Rasha/Baal and the Dark Wanderer/Diablo, and he was doing it without having all of his power available to him. Talking to Tyrael was interacting with an entity whose power was beyond anything we could comprehend, and that made him really cool - it was exciting to walk up to Tyrael in the Pandemonium Fortress and talk to him even if his dialogue was boring, because you felt like he could probably disintegrate everything around him in a ball of light if he wanted to.

Even though the concept of a fallen angel who willingly sacrifices power and immortality for a higher ideal is appealing and potentially awesome, it doesn't work with Tyrael because it kills all of his mystery, all of his immense presence, and all of his assumed, unknown power. It also doesn't work because it doesn't make ANY SENSE AT ALL (according to their lore) that an angel who rips off his wings would become a mortal and fall into sanctuary in a blue comet. It also makes no sense that because of some vague allusion to justice, the dead come back to life when Tyrael falls. I've heard every Blizzard apologist who has tried to explain this, and it still sounds like grasping at straws. Why is that the only justice-oriented change that happens when Tyrael falls? Why isn't Tyrael's fall like a karma bomb that brings good or bad consequences to everyone who's ever done anything good or bad anywhere nearby? And was there a radius of justice? Why didn't the dead rise everywhere in sanctuary when Tyrael's atomic justice bomb exploded?

It was just lazy, stupid writing with plot holes bigger than the crater Tyrael made when he fell.
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I've figured out what Tyreal is!

He's not a mortal, he's a game developer now.

He exists, not as a character in the story, but as a tool the developers use to send you on quests and unlock doors so you can progress through the game.
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Seriously?! The only reason he wussed out because Hope was litherally gone...
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90 Troll Mage
10840
Posts: 3
I never said nobody cares about the story. I also never said that there aren't any plot holes. In fact, I never said whether I thought the story was good or bad. You missed my point.

My point is that it doesn't matter whether the story is good or not. Blizzard didn't need to make a stunning story to make the game fun enough for people to get hooked to it. I personally think the stories of all the Diablo games are subpar at best, when compared to what I prefer to read. At worst they are a horrible tapestry of cliches and religious pop culture.

The story only needs to be good enough to keep the player hacking and slashing monsters while collecting loot. They could've dumbed down the story even more than they did and got away with it as long as players are compelled to continue playing it.

Like I said, if you want a good story, then books are a fairly safe bet. You could also try writing your own stuff if you think you've got a handle on writing an intricate, yet compelling story.
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I hear what you're saying, for sure, and I partially agree with you. Yes, absolutely the Diablo franchise hasn't had brilliant writing the way I would hope to find in a good novel.

Here's my deal though. In Diablo 1 and 2, sure, the story was cliche and not terribly inventive. But it was intriguing and it wasn't stupid - it was, as you said, interesting enough to keep you in the action. You didn't have NPCs acting silly and you didn't have bosses taunting you and telling you where to kill them. You also didn't have three acts of sh!t that felt futile because you knew you were ultimately helping the bad guys. In Diablo 3, the story (and especially the method of story-telling) was actually so bad that it took me out of the action.

It wasn't so much that Blizzard tried to improve the story in Diablo 3 - it's that they threw it in your face constantly, and it SUCKED. The story dominated the action pervasively in Diablo 3, whereas in previous games, it just flavored the action. You couldn't just ignore the story and walk away to kill stuff - you HAD to do all this dumb stuff knowing that everything you were doing for three acts was just going to get Cain killed, get Leah killed, and bring Diablo back as the prime evil. It's just stupid, and Tyrael's crappy, dumbed-down, useless character is wrapped up in the whole futile plot.
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