Diablo® III

Theorycrafting: Dodge Monk: MoE-Backlash

So yeah, just theory crafting here.. So far I gathered info regarding MoE-Backlash.

Rough Draft of stuff:

As much as items go.. below are available at the AH for heaps of gold..
Critical Hit Chance increase
10 Gloves
8.5 amulet
4.5 rings x2 9
= 27.5 Increase + 5 with the innate = 32.5% Crit Chance..

For Skills and Passive with Runes.
Dashing Strike - Blinding Speed 20% for 3sec
Sweeping Wind - Cyclone 20% for 3 sec
MoEvasion- Backlash 15%, 30% in proc
FoT Lightning 16% 2 sec (spirit source for Dashing and Cyclone)
Sixth Sense 30% of Crit Chance= 10 due to the crit we have above..
Guardian's Path Dual Wield. 15

and then there's the dex.

So if you add them all up, you have.. 96% or 115% Bonus to Dodge without Dex and Base Stats?

You'd use 2 Passive Slots. and 4 Action Slots.. so you have room for 1 more passive and 2 more Actions stuff you want to put.

I know the dodge increase percent doesn't add up straight, so it's by some other manner.

Any other people around here that could test this build out? Also, are all attacks.. Dodge-able?

PS: I don't know if there's people doing this already or something but, this is one of the things I'ma gonna go for ^_^ Aside from the Tanking Monk im planning on making regarding the post on the Items Forum.

EDIT:
Questions for this would be..
1. Can you really dodge everything?
2. Since this is not that item dependent, only 4 items are needed, 6 if you'd count the weapons, you can still enhance your DPS and survivability via Resistance, HP and Armor. You can get the Equalizer(forgot the name) Resistant thingie as the last passive too if you like.

3. Backlash ain't that powerful, considering it's 63% per proc but you'd still be hitting monsters to constantly get the dodge up anyways.. so yeah :D
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 5/24/2012 3:41 PM PDT
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Posts: 457
Dodge is not additive stacking. A 5th grader can tell you this build will fall flat.
Edited by Maxk#1515 on 5/24/2012 3:47 PM PDT
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So it's not additive stacking, that's why I'm just theory crafting here.. But for a level 35 with just MoE activated and Guardian's Path dual wielding and 802 Dex I got to 47.4%

http://i.imgur.com/qfPUq.jpg

More if I count the proc of MoE and other skills I've stated, but sadly, I can't test it all out myself. Don't worry though, give me a day or two, I'll pull a level 60 Monk in no time :D
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05/24/2012 03:45 PMPosted by CandyVan
Dodge is not additive stacking. A 5th grader can tell you this build will fall flat.


That's what everybody said, saying Barbarians can't even go past Act 1, then they did, that it's really act 2 that they can't go past, but they did, THEN they told that it's really act 3... 4.. but they cleared it anyway. Then people just said that... "If i have gears like that, i'd do it too"

Srsly. Has anyone even tried it yet? Have you tried it? >_<

EDIT: So.. would this build fall flat? ;)
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 5/24/2012 3:58 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
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Posts: 11,502
05/24/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Chrizzle
1. Can you really dodge everything?

No. Diminishing returns set in. You'll peak out around 65% or so, I believe.

05/24/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Chrizzle
2. Since this is not that item dependent, only 4 items are needed, 6 if you'd count the weapons, you can still enhance your DPS and survivability via Resistance, HP and Armor. You can get the Equalizer(forgot the name) Resistant thingie as the last passive too if you like.

You can't dodge everything - arcane sentries, ground effects, etc. are all unavoidable.

05/24/2012 03:38 PMPosted by Chrizzle
3. Backlash ain't that powerful, considering it's 63% per proc but you'd still be hitting monsters to constantly get the dodge up anyways.. so yeah :D

It's a nice extra source of damage, but you're never going to use it as a main source of DPS output. Best case scenario - a large crowd of fast, weak-hitting high-health mobs - you might get it to approach the damage of Sweeping Winds.
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Posts: 457
05/24/2012 03:54 PMPosted by Chrizzle
Dodge is not additive stacking. A 5th grader can tell you this build will fall flat.


That's what everybody said, saying Barbarians can't even go past Act 1, then they did, that it's really act 2 that they can't go past, but they didth, THEN they told that it's really act 3... 4.. but they cleared it anyway. Then people just said that... "If i have gears like that, i'd do it too"

Srsly. Has anyone even tried it yet? Have you tried it? >_<

EDIT: So.. would this build fall flat? ;)

The barbarian thing was a speculation done by qq'ers. The dodge thing I'm talking about is math. Even if it says 100% on your character tab, it's nowhere near that. I've hit 100% dodge on my monk's character tab and still got hit by melee attacks. Either 100% decided to be no longer 100% or the character tab is lying.
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05/24/2012 07:15 PMPosted by CandyVan
The barbarian thing was a speculation done by qq'ers. The dodge thing I'm talking about is math. Even if it says 100% on your character tab, it's nowhere near that. I've hit 100% dodge on my monk's character tab and still got hit by melee attacks. Either 100% decided to be no longer 100% or the character tab is lying.

That 100% is your base dodge chance against enemies the same level as you. Inferno monsters are all higher levels, which reduces your chance to dodge their hit, and I believe elite packs have an increased chance to hit you through dodge as well.
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Posts: 80
I've got my dodge up to around 70% but going much higher than that is difficult. As far as I can tell after 50% dodge each point of dodge only counts as 2/3 (skill says 15% increase in dodge and only actually gives 10% after 50%) After 60% it gets worse but I didn't care enough to actually figure out the diminishing returns. I used a 70% dodge build to get through Hell with absolutely horrible gear and 9k health. Just spammed cyclone and every time I missed a dodge I'd breath of heaven or serenity. Stops being practical on inferno though. Still I think having even 50% dodge is a huge advantage even in inferno. That means you take only half the damage you normally would before taking into account damage reduction. Getting up to 50% dodge isn't hard either.
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73 Troll Druid
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Posts: 98
So it's not additive stacking, that's why I'm just theory crafting here.. But for a level 35 with just MoE activated and Guardian's Path dual wielding and 802 Dex I got to 47.4%

http://i.imgur.com/qfPUq.jpg

More if I count the proc of MoE and other skills I've stated, but sadly, I can't test it all out myself. Don't worry though, give me a day or two, I'll pull a level 60 Monk in no time :D
you are theory crafting around lvl 35..get to 50 and you see things will change, get to 60 and you notice it wont fly in hell (quickly if at all) then when you get to inferno you will be like damn i got 80% dodge but that 20% hit rate i just got hit 3-4 times in a row, where 2-3hits kill you regardless, then you will revamp and get to act2 inf, and it will change again.

basing a build just to sit there and dodge just to return aoe dmg only when you dodge and/if only you dont die is absrub,

with that faceroll mentality you are better of picking 1 means of dodging, MoE for instance and oh lets say the 20% armor rune, then use deadly reach so you can dps and kite and reduce your damage intake rune it with keen to give 50% armor, now oh i dunno maybe take mystic earth ally so he can draw attention for 6-8hits which gives you a window to dps and burn people down when he dies you have breath and/or serenity to fall back on or both. maybe adding sweeping winds in there for constant dps when appropriate and can maintain it via kiting with deadly reach which would surpass your MoEbacklash damage anyways, since its constant and per second.
Edited by Hetzer#1921 on 5/24/2012 7:57 PM PDT
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@Hokoha
I only used that as an example :) I didn't say that you would just really stand there and do nothing because the build won't even work, you need a constant stream of DMG and Spirit Regeneration to comply with the upkeep cost of the skills required.

Serenity can be added to the build and so would Breath. In my first post, it was stated that there is still 2 slots for Active and 1 for Passive.

@Perogi
So pure dodge is really not viable then, maybe reducing the Dodge and adding that Shield could be better?

@Krinu
thanks for that, I was in the impression that you could dodge almost everything since when I was in the Butcher fight, I was able to dodge most of his attack, his AoE though, that ground burning and bursting into flames wasn't one of those, makes Arcane Sentry, being somewhat in the same category, non-dodge-able.

@CandyVan
I know it's by the QQers, point of this was to just try out a build and try going around it but not sacrificing too much DPS and survival.
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.
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.
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You only take up 6 Equipment slots, and even those 6 slots have nice stats added onto them that won't really gimp your character, it's pretty much a skill build with a bit of changes in the equips.

Maybe Dodge + Block + High Resistance and Nice HP Pool would be better.

EDIT:
Thanks for the information and constructive criticisms ^_^
Edited by Chrizzle#1390 on 5/25/2012 12:36 AM PDT
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73 Troll Druid
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Posts: 98
And apparently you didnt read anything I said, you dont build a build around pure dodge, want dodge? 1 source, then u want to buff your armor, slow their atk, debuff their dmg, egt surviva and actually dps means, your "build" doesnt allow for any real dps increase or surviva, 1-2 isnt enough.
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@Hokoha
I did read your post, if I didn't I wouldn't have replied/quoted you at all.

As for the build, don't go pure Dodge, just get as high as you can WITHOUT compromising your survivability. That's why I didn't put the whole skill build + passive, it's up to you on what you'd get for those 3 stuff :D

As for early theory crafting, I wouldn't theory craft if I'm already at 60, right? I'd just test it straight ahead. ^_^

To note though.. Electric, Arcane, Molten, Plague, Desecrator or whatever that puts something on the ground will ignore dodge, so yeah, this is pretty much, somewhat, useless on Inferno, maybe except from Boss Fights where they use mostly attacks that could be dodged.
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Backlash actually does a very good amount of damage and I find it a large source of dps when building tanky.
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I'm actually trying Inferno Act I with a MoE-Backlash based build.

This is my build:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aWdfgh!ZdU!ZZbYac

Right now I relay on low-end equipment having been in Inferno only for a couple of days:
* 400+ LoH / 570+ DPS fists (x2) at 25% IAS
* 410+ resist all, around 47% DR from armor
* 50% dodge (w/ passive Mantra bonus) and 30k HP

Strat is Dashing Stike (w/ Quicksilver, almost on-demand mobility), spam Cyclone Strike like an !@#$%^- (+20% dodge/3s) and trying a LS/CW/CW (+16% dodge/2s, -20% damage/3s, -25% damage/2.5s). Tap MoE if excess Spirit/mob quantity. Serenity on OH *!@# moments to retreat/heal/regroup.

In regards of equipment (besides increasing weapon DPS/LoH) I would like to drop some Vit in lieu of more resist and DR, and I would also like to try having some Spirit regen on weapons and helmet (maybe so I can spam MoE more often? gotta try this, dunno if worth it).

Some elite packs you'll struggle with (Desecration, Molten, AE, Frost and Plague, mostly because you can't see the "fire" and can't react properly), and some you'll breeze through (Ilusionist and Fire Chain, both trigger dodge), but that's just like almost any class/build AFAIK.

Pretty fun build TBH, you'll have a really REALLY bad time on single-targets though, as you relay on being hit by many to increase your damage (and survivability). So... goodbye treasure goblins.
Edited by coldcite#2978 on 6/4/2012 5:28 AM PDT
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05/24/2012 07:15 PMPosted by CandyVan
I've hit 100% dodge on my monk's character tab and still got hit by melee attacks.


I'm so tired of these liars...

You don't have 100% dodge on your character tab...you POS LIAR.

In order to literally hit 100% dodge you'd have to do it with just Dex.

And in order to do that, you'd need 4,000 dex.

4000/13 item slots = 307.7 Dex per item.

Edit: or I suppose you could stack 334% crit chance and run the passive that gives 30% dodge per crit...which is also not possible...

Affixes don't go that high.

LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE...
Edited by Peli#1747 on 6/4/2012 5:49 AM PDT
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Strat i am using now, is mainly based on items and is similar.. currently, i have 50% resistance, 16.9k damage, 50-60 percent damage reduction, dodge percentage in battle is 60 percent(moH 3 second is around 65-70), crit is at 25%.. as soon as i hit a mob of a few, you use ur mantra to gain extra dodge.. with high damage, ur backlash demolishes creeps..

currently, i can do act one easily.. (inferno).. act 2 would be possible if i had a decent ping(200+) but i can't tank cuz act 2 is stupid for melee classes

skills
lighting fists, sweeping wind with cyclone,blind(elite miss), healing(fear), serenity (heal)
Passive
dualweld, all resistance, seize iniative(can mess around with this passive possibly)

backlash DOES work.. in massive mobs.. the reason why my build works, is because i my speed is around 1.7-1.8 with items (2 spears) vitality is at 1000, dex 1200,
soon as u engage elites, try bring in some !@#$ creeps so backlash goes off really well against stacks of creeps.. if its overwhelming, use serenity + mantra... and u shud be blowing up stuff.. elites of course take a bit of time but with those 3 spells, fear, serenity and blind.. you should be able to keep up .. if elites hurt like nuts, blind them so ur backlash goes off and u have time to use pots etc..

secondly, it is also ur gameplay.. what works best for you.. my build is the dodge crit strat.. i crit alot with sweeping wind cyclones.. and i aim to keep them i corners(cyclones bounce around the corner rather then go away)..

i can kill 95% percent of elites ... but there is always the bull%^-* ones with stupid traits..

currently.. there is really no option for act 2 because my ping wrecks any skillful kiting..
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I messed around with a dodge build like this (minus sweeping wind) and I want to love it but I have a few concerns with it.

First, the single target DPS sucks. I can farm act 1 and up to Maghda in act 2 using a dodge build but killing single opponents like the butcher or Maghda herself takes significantly longer than builds with, say, MoC and thunderclap.

Second, I don't think sixth sense is any different from other dodge abilities (that being multiplicative) so even if you were able to stack 32% crit and get 10% dodge it would only end up being ~3-4% for most people.

Lastly, and related to the second point, I don't think sixth sense in its current state can ever be worth replacing StI or OWE for those times you do get hit, and since GP gives 15% dodge there's no reason to pick SS unless you really want to be an RNG cannon and die every time it craps out or you stand in molten for a second.

Believe me, I want it to work out. I love the concept behind it and the idea of not even getting touched by mobs is pretty sweet. I just don't think it's all that effective right now. Maybe it shines better for people with top notch gear but that certainly isn't me :p
Edited by IzStoikzI#1875 on 6/8/2012 5:36 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
0
Posts: 1,844
The problem with dodge, that some of the other poster hedged around but never hit is that dodge only becomes really useful if you can survive hits without it. No matter how much dodge you get, you can always can a string of bad RNG rolls and you're dead.

Case in point is the achievement monks can get for dodging 15 hits in a row. When I got it, I had about 39% dodge. This means I also had 61% chance to NOT dodge. Thus, the chance of getting 15 times in a row with me not dodging is statistically over 50% higher than my chance of dodging 15 times in a row. That's not good if you want to base a character around dodge.

Lastly, dodge doesn't affect a lot of the really nasty stuff in the game. The hornets that shoot the little exploding poison bugs at you? Can't dodge them and they were the bane of my existence when I first tried act 2 in Inferno. Most of the damaging affixes from elites can't be dodged. Plague, desecrator, molten, arcane, frost - none of these can be dodged.

To sum up, yes dodge can be awesome. You need to be able to survive without it before it can be useful, though - at least somewhat. It takes 2000 Dex to get 40% base dodge, 3000 to get 50%. Higher than that is likely impossible, or close to it - heck over 2000 is likely going to be rough. The highest sustained dodge you can have with 40% from dex is 56.65% dodge. This is counting in Guardian's Path and MoEvasion's base 15%. Everything else is 2 to 3 second buffs, most of which are pretty expensive spirit wise... with 1 more 15% buff, it goes up to 63.1523, a second raises it to 68.78. The odds of keeping even that much active at once for a full fight is unlikely. The 63% one is probably doable with the FoT dodge buff, but that's about it. With it you'd be at 63.586% - that's about the best you're going to do...

If you can get 2000 Dex in the first place. Good luck on that.

Yes my math is correct. Please get someone else to explain it... I already get 'Diablo Defense Calculations 101' nightmares.
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