Diablo® III

Game Designer's Take on Diablo3's loot system

90 Blood Elf Mage
13275


I'll be. I did not know that the level character/difficulty =/= level of drops came up in the beta and was rejected.

That is good to know. I'll save my breath on it.


I have no idea what the !@#$ you just said.

Maybe if you skipped more words and slapped a few more symbols I'd get it??


Sorry you are so clueless. =/= means "not equal" so that the issue of character level, difficulty level not being the same as the loot drop level came up in beta and was rejected, according to your comment.

If that is the case, if the developers already heard complaints about that problem in beta, where the loot drops are consistently far below the monster and character level, so that gearing from loot drops is never going to happen, and loot drops are only good for passing along to lower level characters or the AH, then I can save my breath talking about it.

This is a core problem with D3 right now. If you gear from your own drops, in normal progression (which I am on since I'm got bored and quit doing full clears and am not repeating level clears as I only log off at check points), your gear will always be 10 to 15 levels below your level. That makes one dramatically weaker than one would otherwise be.

That leaves characters with needing to hit the AH every so often in order to stay geared equal to their level. Either that or they grind a bit here and there so that while their gear is weaker than the level, they are over matched to the level.

Either approach is not much fun. Both approaches ruin the fun of loot drops. Loot will always be inadequate for most players. Grossly inadequate. That is significant.

Otherwise, he is a professional game designer. I was one once. Not any more, though a week and a half from now I will be a guest of honor at a con. It doesn't pay well enough, the work is not stable enough, the fans are too angry all the time. Every designer I know ends up unable to play and enjoy the games they work on and has to play other games instead.

Anyway, wish you better luck in understanding this now. As for more symbols, I can't think of any that apply at the moment, but if I do, I'll be sure to through them in so you can have greater clarity.
+1 OP

Why don't you work for Blizzard?
Oh. Right. They kicked out all of their actual talent.
Edited by Halcyon#1378 on 5/30/2012 8:21 PM PDT
90 Blood Elf Mage
13275
[quote]
I'm going to finish the normal difficulty just to run through all the cut scenes. But my wizard packing a spear right now just doesn't feel right. Too quirky for me, by half.

/Sigh.

I'll probably check out after the next few hours of play, come back for the expansion.

you havent finished normal? Wtf r you doing here ^_^?


Well, the forums are more interesting than the game right now. At least for me. At least the way the game is currently playing.
3 - change) Allow for a 'farm' mode of at least an act, if not a difficulty level to be available after you've cleared it at that difficulty. This would enable all waypoints, activate all events, but remove all quests from the act. You would be allowed to go anywhere and explore unrestricted - but still kill any bosses in the act, or complete events in the level.

3 - expected effect) it becomes less tedious and more interesting to back farm content for loot, emergent strategies for full speed clears would be interesting. This would allow for no change to the boss loot dropping strategy since boss runs would still not be the best way to do runs - but you could chain bosses in interesting ways for better loot.


This is a fantastic idea. To extend on this perhaps make the farm mode a mode where all mosters have the same level as the Act IV monstors of that difficulty level so there isn't an "easy" place to farm. That way people could farm thier favourite act and not feel like they are putting in extra effort just because they enjoy killing a certain boss more than others.

Some may argue that doing "the cow level" is kind of like this but being in there for too long gives me a headache. Plus I didn't buy diablo to slay ponies and clouds non-stop.
Edited by Slubb#1205 on 5/30/2012 8:26 PM PDT
72 Human Warlock
1100
05/30/2012 08:11 PMPosted by Frozenkex
i disagree with 5, making bigger cut will simply make more and eventually most people to find trading elsewhere, on forums, websites - and since such large portion of people will start doing it, someone will also make it convenient for unsophisticated users as well.


I liked some of the idea. I think there would be more ramification than those he suggested..but I also disagreed with five. If the items are too expensive to post, then people will develop a third party way to handle transactions of this nature. Since blizzard has out right said that they balance the loot tables around the AH, things would have to be changed at a fundamental level before this would even be applicable, assuming it even would after whatever changes are made have gone through.

The only real complaint I have with the game is that loot for my level does not drop nearly as often as I think it should and when it does, it's hardly ever a stat I can use or is for a class other than my own. I suppose if I was playing in a group on a consistent basis instead of by myself, this could be mitigated since theoretically other classes could be in on it and they might get what I need...but I wouldn't be surprised if the loot tables adjust some how to prevent that from happening.
I agree with most of the points stated. I haven't gotten a single loot that is usable by my Monk. My eq is either under level or bought from the AH. It's to the point that I don't even bother to check the stats of my loot. Just sell them off at the merchant. BORING.

+1.
+1 OP

Why don't you work for Blizzard?
Oh. Right. They kicked out all of their actual talent.


I hope Blizzard hires the OP to replace Jay Wilson
I know I sound like a broken record, but it's good to see posts like the OP's. Instead of petulant whining and crying, it's filled with lots of interesting ideas that the development team can actually consider. All of it presented in a clear, concise manner, and free from the venom and bile I've come to expect.

Overall, I agree with your sentiments that the AH/RMAH shouldn't be taken out, but simply tweaked and balanced. Same goes for loot drops, Inferno, and so on. And they will tweak and balance things. I'm not worried about that.

These are the posts I want to see in the future, as I think they'll be the most helpful in making Diablo 3 an even better experience for everyone. Thank you, OP!
85 Gnome Mage
2650
Great stuff, bumpage
Very well put OP and it makes all alot of sense. Unfortunatly, Blizzard does not really care about feedback of this kind because they would never admit to have implemented bad design choices.
All Ive seen Blues doing is defend the given game mechanics that we consider weak with rather ridiculous attempts.
"This is intended, we made it because X". Then that X usually makes no sense from a gamer pov whatsoever.
I also have seen way too many Blue posts in which it was fairly obvious that the respective Blue didnt even play Diablo 1+2 and/or understand what made us enjoy the game.
They make assumptions about us and think they are right.
"No one enjoyed doing boss runs, thats why we took it out".
Oh, good to know. I for one aswell as everyone in my flist loved doing boss runs, but apperantly we are not part of the target audience anymore?!

Anyway, your post is very good, but youre talking to a stone wall. These people have a certain concept for Diablo III in their mind and they wont stray from it, no matter how often we tell them that they got it all wrong.


So devs have to have played D2 LOD and hated Baal runs and Pendleskin runs. Also doing nothing but running secret cow areas to level to no end is fun as well I guess. So in order for them to know the devs have had to play it themselves and hated all of those things. It would be impossible for all of that data to come from the players, right. If the players really loved all areas of the game then why so many rushes to hell, why didn't players clear everything getting all of the side quests. Take their time at leveling, having fun playing non ladder characters.

Just because you loved doing Baal runs to infinity, not everyone else did. They have the numbers in datamining to prove it. Plus they have the numbers of players that have said that they hated it. So if Boss farming was here, then the only place to farm would be getting everything off of diablo himself. Let's be honest, if there was boss farming then the most difficult boss should have the best gear. That would go against the way the game is designed. It is designed to be explored.
I dont see anything wrong with the current system.

If you want the best gear either have the gold or farm.
05/30/2012 08:33 PMPosted by Chaosbolt
i disagree with 5, making bigger cut will simply make more and eventually most people to find trading elsewhere, on forums, websites - and since such large portion of people will start doing it, someone will also make it convenient for unsophisticated users as well.


I liked some of the idea. I think there would be more ramification than those he suggested..but I also disagreed with five. If the items are too expensive to post, then people will develop a third party way to handle transactions of this nature. Since blizzard has out right said that they balance the loot tables around the AH, things would have to be changed at a fundamental level before this would even be applicable, assuming it even would after whatever changes are made have gone through.

The only real complaint I have with the game is that loot for my level does not drop nearly as often as I think it should and when it does, it's hardly ever a stat I can use or is for a class other than my own. I suppose if I was playing in a group on a consistent basis instead of by myself, this could be mitigated since theoretically other classes could be in on it and they might get what I need...but I wouldn't be surprised if the loot tables adjust some how to prevent that from happening.


My suggestion regarding the listing charges and auction house cut is meant only for the gold auction house - not the RMAH. And is only a part of the changes.

What this addresses is the low minimum buyout prices in the auction house - which are the real problem. It won't affect the super high pricing. Here's some modeling to explain:

Say a level 40 item sells to a vendor for 300 gold, and you want to sell it on the auction house. You would need to pay 300 gold to list it. The default minimum bid would be 300 gold.

However, if the auction house cut was 50%, then you'd only get 150 gold for it if it sold for the minimum. In order to break even, you'd need to set the minimum bid to 600. But then, you'd only get as much money as you spent to list the item in the first place. Given the opportunity cost lost by not selling or salvaging the item, you'd need to sell it for at least 1200 in order to make 300 gold more than the amount you would have made vendoring it.

Now, listing it for only 1200 gold will work if you're SURE it will sell. If it doesn't, you're out 300 gold. So you'll want to pad the price of your items so that you can cover the costs associated with auctions that get no bids - standard mark-up like this is 5 times cost. So you'll want to look at a minimum bid of around 6000 gold (with some discounting to move certain merchandise quickly).

Obviously if its a premium item, you'll want a higher minimum bid, or if its an item you're pretty sure will move quickly - you'll want to put a fair buy out on it.

This puts an average low end price on a level 40 item to 6000 gold. This isn't an exorbitant amount of money, but at level 40 you'd need to clear an entire act to pull the 100,000 to buy a whole set of gear. By then, you'd have leveled some, and gotten some drops, maybe blacksmithed a few things - and instead you might pick up the one or two pieces you've got that have lagged behind a few levels on the AH at a higher quality for say 50,000 a piece. You will also see a higher average quality - and less items to sift through because crap items just won't be worth popping up on the auction house because of the negative financial impact if they don't sell.

Right now, you can pick up a set of passable level 40 gear for around 16k gold. That's way too low, and since there's no risk for the player to put up prices that low, there's no reason for people to increase prices to the point at which it becomes an actual choice as opposed to a "no brainer" to the consumer as to which is the better option.

Blacksmith combines cost around 1500 - 10000 for items between level 35 and 41 (10,000 is a shield and a bit of an anomaly - most items are less than 5,000). So this would be more competitive with the AH as an equipment source - ESPECIALLY if you can force a mainstat mod on the items. And it is a bit more satisfying (in my opinion) to make something you'll use as opposed to picking it out of a window (back to the economy of fun here).

Hopefully that will explain my suggestion in a bit more detail from an economics perspective. It's really a minor change - it just forces some behaviors with regards to the selling side of the auction house to require a bit more skill on the part of the seller, and would generally raise prices across the board to be more inline with other equipment acquisition methods. Obviously with the low-end required prices - we aren't really affecting equipment in the 1m gold range - just in the lower end "gear yourself up for content" range.
Agree, killing boss is now just boring with risk of death (for those that pllay hc), nothing is excite about it since we can expect item that not even worth picking up and sell them off to store. And item from unique boss are of no help to the act I am trying to clear. I find myself asking, why am I sitting here clicking !@#$, so fuken boring. But then again I did pay 60 buck for this %^-*, so I have to get the most of my money by keep on clicking !@#$.
I have read through the entire post, and most of the thread thus far, and I have to say that I am very impressed. This was one of the best reads I have had on these forums, and would LOVE if the OP's ideas were implemented.

1 ) Create a new "NO AH" softcore mode, and increase drop rates in those games to compensate for that change.


I really like this one. But they will need to adjust the loot for this mode in particular.
Awesome post! But I don't think Blizzard will ever fix all these issues as their design is bounded by Auction house. And if ever they response, they will just said the game cannot please everyone... blah...
I was enthused by your post! Not to derail the thread but I've added my thoughts and experiences on the item system with some very basic fixes as well at this thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5235713392
Such a good post.. Thumbs up to OP
Yamahako: You, sir, are correct.
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