Diablo® III

Dual-wielding One Handed Crossbows Vs. Quiver

I'm a little confused on the matter, and are still confused from looking up this topic elsewhere. My basic question is what stats does a 1h xbow/quiver have to have in order to succeed a 1h xbow/quiver?

Right now my Demon Hunter is level 49, and I'm currently using two 1h xbows, but was using 1 hand xbow and quiver before replacing the quiver for a xbow with double the dexterity and more attack speed. My basic thought is that if I find a quiver with more dexterity and attack speed then the off hand crossbow, then use the quiver instead. Am I on the right track here or am I missing something? Also, what stats on a quiver would I look for if a quiver were the better option?

Main Hand:
-120.1 DPS
-167 Dexterity
-56 Vitality
-12% Attack Speed
-Each Hit Adds 76 Life
-Gem Socket with 12-24 damage red.

Off Hand:
-120.0 DPS
-9-18 Cold Damage
-56 Strength
-169 Dexterity
-43 Vitality
-Gem Socket with 12-24 damage red.
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85 Tauren Druid
3735
you can add up more +critical damage% with two weapons.

this favors crit builds from sharpshooter, which also favor speed for nightstalker; which the dual hizzy setup accomplishes

with emeralds btw, not rubies. this cannot be stacked the same with quivers
Edited by zoid#1554 on 5/29/2012 8:18 PM PDT
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I'm assuming crit is the way to go with Demon Hunters? Right now I'm building mine with as much dexterity and vitality as I can get. My damaging abilities I'm using are multishot with the fire at will rune and hungering arrow with the devouring arrow rune. I've read up on nether tentacle builds for Infernal and all that but i'm not up to that difficulty yet.
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85 Tauren Druid
3735
05/29/2012 08:35 PMPosted by Venti
I'm assuming crit is the way to go with Demon Hunters?
yes/no

sharpshooter stacks damage nicely, and since crits = disc = SS survival
since the game is pockets of mobs that need to be bursted, this works out well for many players.

it is not necessarily the best, if you could say that.
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I am using two 1handed Crossbows at the moment.

roughly
400 dps
1.81 attacks per sec

+150 dexterity
+14% Attackspeed

Both have about these stats, some lifedrain etc, but these are the ones I picked them for.

whenever I find a quiver with say:

+120 dexterity
+14% Attackspeed

it somehow shows that I will get more damage overall when I equip the quiver instead of the offhand crossbow.
This while the stats are actually lower on the quiver than on my crossbows.

are the 2nd crossbow's stats not fully effective? and is the weapon dmg ignored?
How does this mechanic work?

small summary of the situation:

1hand crossbow + quiver* gives 8500 damage
1hand crossbow + 1hand crossbow* gives 8000 damage....

*quiver:
+120 dexterity
+14% attackspeed

*1hand crossbow:
+150 dexterity
+14% attackspeed

thanks in advance
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I believe it shows your Damage for the "active" weapon. Since you alternate hands when firing, it shows the Damage for the hand that will be firing next. Some stats (namely Attack Speed on weapons) only affect that specific weapon/hand.
Edited by Yraen#1995 on 5/31/2012 6:15 AM PDT
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I assume one of your crossbows has more dps than the other?
Edited by Dogkirk#2752 on 5/31/2012 6:19 AM PDT
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05/31/2012 06:18 AMPosted by Dogkirk
I assume one of your crossbows has more dps than the other?


this is correct, the main hand weapon has about 30 dps more

415 - 385

but if the 14% attackspeed on a weapon, only affects the weapon itself,
does the quiver 14% give its speed to the weapon equipped in the other slot?
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90 Orc Death Knight
6480
I'm almost positive the dps shown in your stat summary accounts for both weapons. In fact, it accounts for everything.

It's tough to say for sure why @Cairne is getting more dps with a quiver than his bows since you only gave 'about this much' stats, but keep in mind that even if your offhand does only 10-30 dps less, by the time you factor in the +IAS and +dmg% from dext (at level 50ish about 2000%), all of a sudden you MH bow is doing an extra 600 dps, so when you do fire with your offhand, its actually a lot less, even though if you saquint at your inventory the bows seem very similar.

TL;DR - even the tiniest loss in dps in MH bow vs. OH bow will kill your overall dps. The quiver does not suffer from this. But you can stack +crit dmg in OH bows...
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so I am correct to assume that if I take two 1handed crossbows:

1.81 attacks per second

they alternate, so they dont fire more than just those 1.81 shots per sec.

say: 220 dmg per shot for each weapon

its just as good as having one 1handed crossbow and a quiver, since it will just fire at that same speed with the same dmg output.
again those 1.81 shots at 220 dmg per shot.

meaning that if you have 2 weapons with different dps, you'll actually do better with a quiver with higher stats?
Edited by Cairne#2933 on 5/31/2012 6:35 AM PDT
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so I am correct to assume that if I take two 1handed crossbows:

1.81 attacks per second

they alternate, so they dont fire more than just those 1.81 shots per sec.

say: 220 dmg per shot for each weapon

its just as good as having one 1handed crossbow and a quiver, since it will just fire at that same speed with the same dmg output.
again those 1.81 shots at 220 dmg per shot.

meaning that if you have 2 weapons with different dps, you'll actually do better with a quiver with higher stats?


crossbows do more damage than bows which do more damage than 1 hand crossbows

you will always do better with a quiver unless you have godly 1h crossbows

but if you have access to godly 1h crossbows you have access to godly 2h crossbows so you wouldnt be using them
Edited by w00dberry#1617 on 5/31/2012 6:43 AM PDT
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I assume one of your crossbows has more dps than the other?


this is correct, the main hand weapon has about 30 dps more

415 - 385

but if the 14% attackspeed on a weapon, only affects the weapon itself,
does the quiver 14% give its speed to the weapon equipped in the other slot?


This is the cause I think.

When you equip two weapons, I believe your overall DPS is calculated as an average of their two DPS's (in this case 400) + 15% Attack Speed bonus from Dual-wielding. Therefore, if you switch the lower Crossbow out for a quiver, then your base DPS will be 415 *Dex Bonus * Attack Speed.

Dex increases your damage based on a percentage of your actual DPS. That's why weapon DPS is most important for increasing damage, especially when your Dexterity is already really high. So even just that extra 15 DPS you have, when multiplied by your Dex bonus, becomes a pretty big deal. Apparently a big enough deal to make up for the 1% attack speed loss when switching from dual-wielding to a quiver with 14% Attack Speed.

I don't believe there is ever a "best case scenario" (i.e. 2h Xbow is ALWAYS best) you just have to go on a case by case basis. Personally, it has been very rare for me to be able to get the best DPS with 2 1h Xbows, which sucks because that's my favorite visually.
Edited by Hound#1325 on 5/31/2012 6:53 AM PDT
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90 Orc Death Knight
6480
Its hard to simplify this issue without OVER-simplifying it.

With a 1h xbow in each hand, each weapon automatically gets a 15% +IAS. You then fire each weapon alternating, but each fires 15% faster.

With any bow and a quiver equipped, you are firing just the 1 bow at 11% faster (with the higher level quivers).

The question is: Do that stats on your OH xbow (vs the quiver) and the extra 4% IAS overcome the dps loss you take from firing the lower dps bow every other shot?

Theres no blanket "If your OH bow isn't at least Xdps from your MH dps, then use a quiver" rule here, it all just depends on the gear you have available. I've been using the same quiver for going on 15 levels now, because I just cant find anything that can top it. This sucks, because I really, really want to use 2 1h bows. Looks so good!
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One big decider between Quiver vs DW is that Quivers can have +Discipline, whereas 1h xBows cannot. At later levels, this is very important.

If they changed the Archery bonus on 1h xBows to be +0.5 Discipline regen or something, that would be more interesting than just +10% crit chance, in my opinion.
Edited by Yraen#1995 on 5/31/2012 7:13 AM PDT
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05/31/2012 07:31 AMPosted by HopTortoise
One big decider between Quiver vs DW is that Quivers can have +Discipline, whereas 1h xBows cannot. At later levels, this is very important.


1h xbows can have +max discipline. That's one of the main reasons two 1h xbows can be the best possible, because you can get more discipline than any other build.


Really? Interesting, guess I should have known better than to just assume based on other weapon types :s
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05/31/2012 07:31 AMPosted by HopTortoise
One big decider between Quiver vs DW is that Quivers can have +Discipline, whereas 1h xBows cannot. At later levels, this is very important.


1h xbows can have +max discipline. That's one of the main reasons two 1h xbows can be the best possible, because you can get more discipline than any other build.


but after a point, getting more disc is just a waste of stat budget. If you need to SS 10 times in a row i think it's safe to say the problem isn't your max disc
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05/31/2012 07:33 AMPosted by Illana
but after a point, getting more disc is just a waste of stat budget. If you need to SS 10 times in a row i think it's safe to say the problem isn't your max disc


It would add a sight buffer for using more than just SS (Caltrops, Mark, etc)... or allow you a bit more leeway on your chest slot stats.
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