Diablo® III

Does the Witchdoctor seem out of place?

90 Human Paladin
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Posts: 227
My WD is lvl 50 and just began hell mode. I love playing her but I must admit, I feel like it may be a little too emphasized on being a summoner when the demons they summon have very little defensive capabilities (i.e. they are dead in a matter o seconds after engaging anything).
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WD is a poormans Necromancer
Wizard is a poormans Sorceress
Demon Hunter is a poormans Amazon
Monk is a poormans Paladin

And last but not least, Barbarian is not even a poormans Barbarian. It's a poormans effin Warrior from WoW

Imo:
Wizard = sorc + battle mage
Barb = D2 Barb + some spiritual powers
DH = Amazon + Assn
Monk = Pally + Assn
WD = Necro + voodoo power

WD is the most original, for sure.
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Did they even test wd spells before they sell it? 70%of the wd spells are useless.
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Posts: 100
I have no idea how Blizzard testers did not "discover" the lack of pet viability in Inferno before release.

I mean, it's so painfully obvious to anyone who has even casted the skill on that difficulty that it just flat out wasn't going to work.

Vitality scaling isn't going to be enough, they need some serious buffs and Passive tweaking to justify spending 33% of your active skills and your entire Passive bar on minions who, if they're anything like you, die in 1-2 hits on Inferno.

The Necromancer's Summons were done right in D2, even with poor quality gear they were viable in Hell. You could shop around for +summon gear and end up with a pretty respectable army, or at least one that could get 1-2 kills for you in order to start off a Corpse-explosion chain, the real killer in Hell.

Now we have useless summons and useless Passives designed to help these summons. It needs an entire overhaul, one that honestly shouldn't have been necessary. As I've said, these problems are so blatantly obvious that no one could possibly miss them on a playthrough.
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Posts: 86
I think the design goal of needing to re-summon pets should get re-evaluated. (I.e. I think it's misguided.)

I feel, as I'm sure many others feel, that the witch doctor is the spiritual successor of the necro from D2. Skeletons finally were made worthwhile after many patches there. Before the skill/3 consolidation skeletons were useless because they died to a stiff breeze (familiar?) but after it they were a good meat shield. They were semi-decent damage via amp damage, but mostly they were a good meat shield because they didn't die outside of weird LE/thorns/aura situations. I'm looking at you, Duriel.

I don't see any reason to make zombie dogs squishy when they do so very little damage. They're even weaker damage-wise than skeletons were in D2, and with only 3 (or 4) of them available instead of 5-10 skeletons, they really deserve to live. Heck, if they were invincible I don't think it would be a bad design. It would be taking up a skill slot for some imperfect defense and very minimal damage, and the cooldown would still be very relevant for any sort of sacrifice usage.

-- For reference I just started A2NM on my witch doctor, and dogs are already useless. I'm using both Jungle Fort and Zombie Handler as passives and they just evaporate to half the things I go up against... especially in multiplayer when I can't quickly dispatch everything before it gets hits in on my dogs.
Edited by Rasmfrackn#1118 on 6/2/2012 6:05 PM PDT
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I built my WD 100% for my pets. I can tank all of Inferno act 1 no problem. Even carried my friend a barb through act 1. But once i hit act 2 . My Garg who could tank the boss of act 1. Is now dying from normal mobs. So I bought alot of gear. Lowered my DPS to about 8k but now my resist and armor are very high. about 500 all resist and 4k armor. So i tested it in act 1 first. With such low dps i wasnt even able to kill the butcher.
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I think you'd have less hating on the WD, in general, if our zombie dogs and gargantuan didn't require fairly specific and fairly rigid gearing requirements to be viable.


While the intent is for witch doctors to re-summon Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan fairly often, we agree that pets aren't living long enough in higher difficulty levels. Of course, the harder difficulties are supposed to be more challenging, but we don't think it's fun gameplay to cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly, wait for the cooldown to reset, re-cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly...etc. And this is happening even when players are wearing pretty reasonable gear.

We're looking into ways to improve witch doctor pet survivability at later levels, but we don't have any clear plans to share just yet. One thing we're considering, though, is having pets scale with your Vitality (which they currently do not do).


As a witchdoctor who has been in Inferno since day 3, and has recently rerolled to Demon Hunter:

1) Pets are too weak past normal. Pets need better scaling in general, ala Diablo 2 patches skeletons etc, but more importantly, need to scale with damage in particular. Vitality scaling doesn't matter if your pets can't kill anything ever.

2) Pets need the ability to hold aggro. Period. No need to explain this. Simple videogaming 101.

3) Witchdoctors need a damage and survivability buff. This could perhaps be done by making abilities scale efficiently, and reducing the cooldown on things like Zombie wall.

As things are, my demon hunter is rocking roughly 100k+ dps when I use my 1298 bow (I'm also trying to sell this for a crossbow for even more damage), whereas my witchdoctor with 24 million in gear (that I've sense auctioned for my DH) was pulling 45k dps.
Edited by KarsaOrlong#1111 on 6/2/2012 6:24 PM PDT
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100 Undead Rogue
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Posts: 28
I love my witch doctor personally. I was a huge necro fan in D2, and while there are some lacking spots in this character, I wasn't expecting it to be a direct port. If it was going to be a direct port, why not just bring necro back? I think that witch doctor has the coolest spells in the game. Graphically...and the actual ability itself.

....however, its disappointing to see how useless most of the abilities are. They *have* a use, but they just aren't worth it...or very strong. It's like having the coolest toys on the playground, but no one really cares because they are junk. :(
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Slight wall of text suggestion for skill:

Hmmm while bored and browsing my old D2 account, I decided to play my nerco for a bit today. I found a couple of things about pet abilities that could be either taken directly or altered so that it would buff WD pets without making them insanely broken that would require a subsequent nerf.(Such as implementing WOW's pet AOE damage reduction)

Blood Golem: http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Blood_Golem

While it is originally built for a golem which is equivalent to our Garg, I think it could be turned into a passive so that it applies to all of our pets/minions. I would make a suggestion that its core ability gets altered into something that fits D3 as well as a WD overall theme, something like this:

-Paid in Blood-Passive skill slot: Links the Witch Doctor with the servants of the Spirit Realms. The Witch Doctor and his servants are now linked by a blood pact with one another, causing 20% of all damage to be absorb by the other while causing 50% of weapon damage inflicted by the Witch Doctor or his servants to heal the other.(Optional: Allows all sources of healing that the Witch Doctor receives to benefit his Servant as well.)

*Disclaimer: I am currently lacking in creatively for naming things. The numbers and percentage are examples and of course can be changed to allow balance.

I think it would increase pet viability by a huge portion if combine with the Vitality scaling on pets. It also creates a whole new viable build for the WD class itself since you can stack Attack Speed/DPS to benefit both you and your pets. It also allows, should the Optional part be added in, for you to manually heal your pets from Health Globes, HP pots, Self HP Regen, and Life on hit stats. The optional part would effectively rework the current Fierce Loyalty Passive into something that has more "Ummph" than its current form.

Edit: Spelling

This will ONLY work if the pets don't stand in AOEs or run after champ packs like a chihuahua not realizing they can't stop that train.

I never saw someone use a Blood Golem in Diablo 2 for that reason. Diablo hoses them and you start bleeding all over the place with no real recourse. You just had to keep resummoning the thing to keep it from yelling 'IgotthisIgotthisIgothis!' and getting splatterd while taking a chunk of your health with it. If it cost some health to summon, took 20% of your damage itself, and leeched health for you then that'd be another story.
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The witch doctor fights fire with fire. Fighting demons by summoning demonic creatures. He also uses dark arts like poisons and what not. How does he not fit into this game??
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I think the male wd interacts the best out of all the chars I've played so far (male monk, female monk, female dh, male wd, male barb, male wiz).

I don't mind the look at all and the spells add a little bit of comedy to an otherwise fairly bleak game.
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Interesting!

Are you referring to how the witch doctor looks (physical appearance + armor options) or how the hero interacts with other characters in the game and progresses with the story arc? Or is it all about gameplay, and what spells the witch doctor has in its arsenal?


He's a Jamaican in New York!

I only played WD to lvl 13 but what bothers me is that he is clearly an alien, a freak in this world (which is fine) but that neither npc's nor he himself seems to acknowledge it. He acts as if he belongs, but he doesn't. He's very much a stranger. People he talks to should react in a kind of spooked way, because he partly lives in the Unformed Land.

But what really doesn't belong in the game are dual wielding crossbows with rapid fire machine gun sounds and nuzzle flare. Sorry but that's just idiotic.
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85 Worgen Warlock
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Posts: 2,411
I think you'd have less hating on the WD, in general, if our zombie dogs and gargantuan didn't require fairly specific and fairly rigid gearing requirements to be viable.


While the intent is for witch doctors to re-summon Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan fairly often, we agree that pets aren't living long enough in higher difficulty levels. Of course, the harder difficulties are supposed to be more challenging, but we don't think it's fun gameplay to cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly, wait for the cooldown to reset, re-cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly...etc. And this is happening even when players are wearing pretty reasonable gear.

We're looking into ways to improve witch doctor pet survivability at later levels, but we don't have any clear plans to share just yet. One thing we're considering, though, is having pets scale with your Vitality (which they currently do not do).


Sadly though, this would only be one part of it. Even if they had 100k health, one good crit from an Inferno white mob and they're still done. Or even just one hit from a blue/yellow/yellow minion. Health isn't really the issue with pets, it's how much damage that the Inferno mobs do.

Personally, I think a good fix would be to give them a set number of moves that they can survive before death. Kind of like a 100% dodge chance for 10 (or so) attacks, or until 60 seconds passes (the recast timer on the spells), after which the buff wears off and they're free to get 1-shot.

They hardly hold enough aggro for us to stand there and leisurely fire away un-bothered, so it's not really something that would imbalance the class. It would just make pet builds actually viable.

EDIT: Another suggestion, you could possibly change the Fierce Loyalty Passive ability, to give an increase to the number of "perfect dodge" attacks before your pet get clobbered, while leaving the thorns portion as is.

Another suggestion completely, would be to make it so your pets are only able to take a certain percentage of their health in damage per attack, kind of how you had Energy Armor for Wizards.

The solution is out there, and I'm confident that you'll find a working one for us.
Edited by Alure#1248 on 6/2/2012 10:23 PM PDT
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Posts: 127
06/01/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Lylirra
I think you'd have less hating on the WD, in general, if our zombie dogs and gargantuan didn't require fairly specific and fairly rigid gearing requirements to be viable.


While the intent is for witch doctors to re-summon Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan fairly often, we agree that pets aren't living long enough in higher difficulty levels. Of course, the harder difficulties are supposed to be more challenging, but we don't think it's fun gameplay to cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly, wait for the cooldown to reset, re-cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly...etc. And this is happening even when players are wearing pretty reasonable gear.

We're looking into ways to improve witch doctor pet survivability at later levels, but we don't have any clear plans to share just yet. One thing we're considering, though, is having pets scale with your Vitality (which they currently do not do).


What do the pets actually scale with? This isn't something that super hardcore min/maxers want to know, it's actually something that's required for anyone to have any idea of how the pets will work in game. Is there any point of me getting tons of armor/resists, or does that have no effect as well?

Another thing I've heard posted is adding more (or any, if it's the case) of your armor to the pets for the various pet passives. Adding some of your armor or vitality to the pets when using a passive like "Fierce loyalty" or "Zombie Handler" would make sense.
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I don't know if this was posted before or not since reading all of the comments on this topic is a a bit exhausting. Here it goes anyway.

WD seems more like a slapstick comedy type of character when compared to the other classes.

To exemplify this:
-That awkward moment when you kill an epic prime evil by tossing spiders at it or by needling him to death with poison darts
-I've mainly played wizard so far. It's a bit goofy when a spell like Zombie Tower (aka zombie pile thing) deals 3x-4x more damage than a wizard's pure energy death ray or a extremely high velocity meteor :D (I understand that the damage ranges are required for balancing, I'm merely pointing out the troll physics behind them)

Not to say Witch Doctor isn't fun. Quite the opposite. :)
Edited by Hades#2499 on 6/2/2012 11:13 PM PDT
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It would be nice to see poison damage stack into a giant, rolling DoT. This way a Witch Doctor could really get a truly 'insidious' feeling going.

-Hate
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Posts: 7,046
06/01/2012 10:24 AMPosted by Lylirra
I think you'd have less hating on the WD, in general, if our zombie dogs and gargantuan didn't require fairly specific and fairly rigid gearing requirements to be viable.


While the intent is for witch doctors to re-summon Zombie Dogs and Gargantuan fairly often, we agree that pets aren't living long enough in higher difficulty levels. Of course, the harder difficulties are supposed to be more challenging, but we don't think it's fun gameplay to cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly, wait for the cooldown to reset, re-cast Zombie Dogs, watch them die almost instantly...etc. And this is happening even when players are wearing pretty reasonable gear.


THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!

I am so happy you guys recognize the problem! <3
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