Diablo® III

more monk questions (hell diff)

ok i been really trying to tweek my build to the fullest these last few days and im torn between some abilities. id like the community's input.

ok i was using fist of thunder with thunerclap rune but now that ive hit hell i want to try using either deadly reach with keen eye or foresight rune or crippling wave with concussion rune. what do u guys think is the better choice? i like crippling wave but it seems subpar against single target mobs (maybe its just my imagination) but for multiple mobs, it is very nice. plus i love the attack speed slow, movement slow and with the rune reduced damage. seems win win in all situations. it is worth it even against bosses?

ok next question...escape. what do u other monks use for escaping a surround? i was using tempest rush but have now switched it out for lashing kick with vulture kick rune. i tried dashing strike, but meh i didnt care for it. id rather use dashing kick with the 50% stun rune but then i have no way out of a tight situation. advice?

i started using the mystic ally with earth rune and i definitely love it alot. 10% extra health and my own little mini tank. it has saved me but drawing aggro so i could tp if things were bad. dunno if i could do without him unless i find a steady group to run with.

ok next question...mantras. i was using mantra of healing with circular breathing. only reason was for the spirit regen. i have a weapon with spirit regen now so would evasion with hard target be better?

last question...passives. im 56 atm with 214 resists with OWE. i use seize the initiative, OWE, and transcendence. now at 58 i want to use near death experience. which one of these passives should i remove? i like the armor so im thinking transcendence. how vital to u all feel it is at the higher difficulties?

anyways here is what u been running with the last couple hours. http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#WZjXhg!YXU!Z.cbaY

solid? not solid? should i switch it up for boss fights?

lvl 56
36k health unbuffed
214 res
2.6 dps unbuffed
683 dex
1046 vit
armor 3183 with seize ~3800 with evasion hard target - ~6k if i use deadly reach with keen eye.

sorry for wall of text, but im hoping to get some feedback. thanks!
Edited by Godhand#1783 on 6/6/2012 4:36 AM PDT
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You should be most concerned with stacking OWE through the rough. Also, I think Pacifism is way better than trans or seize the initiative.
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I found "Serenity-Peaceful Repose" to be much more useful than "Serenity-Ascension"
*edit* I figured 7k hp with my dodge would give me longer survive ability than an extra 1 second of invulnerability. Plus, if you get low... its easy to kite and wait for two heals instead of one.

I personally used crippling wave with concussion rune for a looonnng time. You definitely need some attack speed or you're strapped for spirit (from my experience anyway)

Also, I liked "sweeping wind" with "resolve" passive (instead of one with everything passive). Your sweeping wind constantly keeps all near-by enemies at 25% damage reduction.
*edit* i didn't like the mystic ally at all, barely any damage, only slight control.

I looked more for "resist all" instead of trying to stack a TON of one resist while avoiding the rest and using "one with everything".

Even if I did manage to get my resists slightly higher only stacking one single resist, the flat 25% damage reduction from "resolve" is a lot harder to achieve via armor / resists.

Just tips from my SC monk i rolled at launch... and to reiterate... attack speed makes an INSANE amount of difference.
Edited by Sanyu#1748 on 6/6/2012 5:11 AM PDT
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pacifism is a great ability, love it.

As for the questions:

Ability choice... sure there are many, some work well, most don't. Crippling wave, with concussion. I love the aoe, and the slow, but if you are soloing with enchantress you are already getting it, and crippling is the slowest of the spirit generators. Don't get me wrong, crippling is a great "I'm surrounded constantly and I don't wanna take too much dmg" ability.

Deadly Reach - Keen or Foresight: I am just not a fan of deadly reach unless I am dualwielding and need to maintain distance. With that being said, if you have movement on your boots and aren't getting hit usually, go foresight for the dmg buff. If you are going for armor from keen, I would rather go for dodge (will get to that in a sec).

Fists of thunder... with dodge rune.... absolutely amazing imo. First off you get the 15% dodge (at least I think it was 15%) Now obviously this doesn't start to pay off until around 25-30% dodge. Secondly, you get the wonderful knockback on the third hit... how awesome is that. I absolutely love this ability and wouldn't change out of it. So much more survivability than just the dodge buff.

Escaping a surround you asked... there are various options, but what I have found to work is one of two things. Now assuming there is an opening you could try LTK with stun run, and go for it, or you could try a blind, maybe double blind rune or burst dmg. Now that I think of it, if your BoH is runed for fear, that would probably solve your problem if you find you encounter that alot. The easier method is to just reposition.... a lot. I am guessing you have been running crippling if you are finding yourself trapped, test out another where you have to reposition to keep in front of you.

Mantras: I think there are 3 options, as a tankish build. You can evasion - hard target, or go healing - resists, or another option could be healing - life on hit, sure it's only 186 but if you run in a group, that is something you can share with others. IMO hard target is the way to go with soloing, and running with enchantress.

Passives... such an interesting situation... You used the most popular passives, but now the fear of death makes you rethink. While you are still in hell and have all ur resists under 300, I might drop OWE. I would not give up sieze, especially since you have 683 dex (kinda low imo) and don't drop transcendence unless you improve your life from spirit spent. What I would do is see how much armor difference from dropping seize, and do some simple calculations, and also see how you are handling your current progression.

When in doubt... farm again.
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Assuming that I am running with a range character, I do my best to basically put myself between the mobs and the better dps, corral, door block, and dps them as best I can.
This is the build I use for progression through hell and inferno:

You didn't mention your dps weap. It can make a difference if it has life steal on it, alot more than the very limited healing you get from transcendence. (trans is a huge waste, imo) Honestly, the build is more about stopping the things that can kill me. lets say its frozen, archane illusion vortex mortar, if i get surrounded im dead. I need an escape, i push up against the mobs, sanctuary so they run away. Inner Sanctuary is under appreciated. in door block situations, thats like 7 seconds of free dps time per 20 seconds.
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06/06/2012 05:13 AMPosted by Bryun
What I would do is see how much armor difference from dropping seize, and do some simple calculations, and also see how you are handling your current progression.

thanks for all the replies

my armor drops to ~2100 without seize. i really dont want to give it up. i know my dex is low, but my luck hasnt been the greatest. usually i always opt to take more health or resist over dps. maybe thats bad. pacifism is also great but i just dont know where to put it. my other choice (as someone said) was just try and get resist all stuff and then OWE can be gotten rid of. then i could use seize, trans, near death and /or pacifism.

ya im not a huge fan of crippling or deadly reach. i used fist of thunder from 1-till 56. im only now starting to rethink stuff now since im in hell. i think ill switched back to fist of thunder. argh so hard to choose. i need more slots for skills! =D
Edited by Godhand#1783 on 6/6/2012 5:53 AM PDT
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There are a lot of redundancies in your build.

My Build http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aXQgiY!TUZ!accaZY

Point by point:

1. Crippling wave/Concussion - This is useful but hard to keep stacks up. You kite a lot in hell and inferno if your gear isn't up to par which it surely wont be. Your better option if you really want crippling wave is to go for mangle or tsunami. I would suggest Tsunami as you don't have any other method of chasing mobs.. and they run A LOT.

I would consider dropping the idea of going crippling now that you're in hell actually, you should have done it earlier. You aren't going to be fighting things that you can steamroll AOE.

Deadly Reach / keen eye would be a good replacement though it does leave something to be desired. It's a good defensive ability, however youre dropping that onto pretty much one of two slots you have that can be used for offense.

My preference is actually Fists with thunder clap, the attack speed = spirit, the mobility = chasing and survivability all at once with a jump in your damage.

2. Mystic Ally - I hate it. It is a crutch. You are wasing a slot for 10% more hp, but your vit is going to be fairly low at this point anyways and you should be focusing on resists. The ally dies pretty fast in packs and boss fights as well when you need the DPS the most, recasting it starves you of spirit.
Till they work out a way to make their effects more dependable they are just generally useless.

3. Matra of Evasion - This is a toss up. If your DR from resists are much lower than DR from armor then switch to MoH with time of need. If you are going with any other passive or rune at all that gives armor, go with time of need. If you are using a shield and not dodge stacking.. go with time of need. Basically till you are late inferno geared the resists end up being better for you - plus you get an on activation damage shield and some kiting regeneration with MoH.

Evasion is all spike damage and you cant afford hit or miss situations when you are in Inferno or later hell. A few hits would kill you so all you need is a bad dodge streak and GG

Resists and armor are key, then health, then dodge..

4. Lasing tail kick - I am just not a fan of this skill. It has 1 purpose, the damage isn't particularly useful and the need for knockback can be handled either by playing smart (dont get cornered), or through runing Breath of Heaven with fear.

5. Breath of heaven - if y ou are going to be surrounded enough in hell and inferno enough where the range on that debuff will hit the enemies then you are going to either need more healing or an escape. Rune it to heal harder (heal the group if in multiplayer) or rune it to fear (given no other escape mechanic)

6. Serenity - an extra second doesn't compare to the healing component. It just doesn't. Always use serenity, always use it with the heal rune. No other options. This is one one skill that you just alawys have and dont change.

Transcendence - This works well if you have runed fear into breath of heaven, pop mantras often for their added bonus, all of that.. it is useful but I think between serenity, breath, mantra of health and potions you have enough healing.

Seize is great if you don't have an armor passive anywhere else and if you happen to have pretty high dext. In my opinion this isn't as useful as it looks up front. Consider that any damage you do applies Resolve. You could either get 680 armor (like 2ish % DR at this level?) or you could get 25 from whatever damage you do. This has great synergy with Crippling wave and Sweeping Wind. This is why i build those last two in for my damage. Those two cover the DR, AOE, chasing and single point dps in two abilities and 1 passive that you currently have from 4 different abilities and a passive.

OWE needs no explanation. If you are a monk progressing without this you're wrong. It can't be reasonably dropped till very later inferno gearing - and maybe not even then on hardcore.

If you have specific questions PM me and I will give you what I can. Im at work and this got really convoluted.

*EDIT* Had to reorganize things, something got messed up in my editor.
Edited by Ender08#1879 on 6/6/2012 7:12 AM PDT
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For the most part correct, just a few notes though:

4. Lasing tail kick - I am just not a fan of this skill. It has 1 purpose, the damage isn't particularly useful and the need for knockback can be handled either by playing smart (dont get cornered), or through runing Breath of Heaven with fear.

Depends on whether you use Deadly Reach or not. The synergy with Deadly Reach is amazing. With careful play, it is possible to take out large groups of melee enemies (champion packs included) without getting hit. Fast weapons are ideal to regain as much spirit as possible before enemies enter melee range again.

I can see how LTK would be less desirable with other spirit generators though.

Transcendence - This works well if you have runed fear into breath of heaven, pop mantras often for their added bonus, all of that.. it is useful but I think between serenity, breath, mantra of health and potions you have enough healing.

This is a tough one. True, there are other heals, but if you are burning spirit as fast as you are generating it (especially on fast weapons with IAS), the health per second is extremely difficult to beat. But, it is the one passive that will likely have the least detrimental effect if dropped.

Seize is great if you don't have an armor passive anywhere else and if you happen to have pretty high dext. In my opinion this isn't as useful as it looks up front. Consider that any damage you do applies Resolve.

Resolve won't do any good if you are hit before it is applied. I view Resolve the same way as Keen Eye rune: An added bonus, but don't rely on it for survival. Depending on current armor level, Seize may only add a few points of mitigation, but you need to hit a certain level of mitigation to even function and it helps reach it.

Evasion is all spike damage and you cant afford hit or miss situations when you are in Inferno or later hell. A few hits would kill you so all you need is a bad dodge streak and GG.

Agreed, but it shouldn't be ignored either. Much of the "difficulty" in D3 is surviving until the next health globe drops or cooldown finishes. While it can be spiky, the long term average dodge chance will increase the time you live during that wait.

My own piece of advice is to not neglect DPS. While it is possible to survive indefinitely on scripted boss fights, there are some champion packs that, unless you are able to run away, you will die if the fight goes on long enough. My previous two high level Monks died not because they were instantly killed, but because there was a constant drain on my health and I couldn't deal damage fast enough to kill them before they killed me.
Edited by Matthew#1673 on 6/6/2012 7:43 AM PDT
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Matthew I agree with most of what you say but you have to consider the gear level he is at IAS is almost always looked over for survivability or pure stats.. not always but pretty often. Monks end up spirit starved till it becomes viable to get good IAS stacked, which makes Trans difficult to justify.

I haven't gotten behind the LTK and Deadly Reach combo though I can see its merits. Personal play style I think is the factor for this one.

Resolve is big for me because of how I play, and how the OP is trying to play. If you want to AOE stuff you want resolve. You aren't going to get 1 shot by some archers... probably. (If you do then you weren't going to live in that area anyway. Touching on your time to health globe idea, this is a better bridge for that gap in a sustained fight than Seize. You're more vulnerable initiating a fight, but once the debuff is applied it is easy to keep up, might fight or while running away. (read: kiting)

My ideas on dodge are more order of precedence. Don't ignore it obviously, but don't build for it over resist or armor. Those dodge based builds are always in a case where someone is out gearing the content. They aren't viable for progression in hardcore.
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Don't worry, I wasn't stating you were wrong. I agree with you, just clarifying that there isn't a one specific way to play and that some of the things you mentioned still have merit, depending on the big picture. I.E., just giving a second opinion.

BTW, I am using this build: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#bZgdTh!YXU!cZabYa

The gameplay is based off of being defensive by being offensive. The DR/LTK combo is able to land several hits while keeping enemies away. Serenity/SSS are used to become completely immune to damage and effects while still doing damage. I usually run with MoC/Overawe, but switched to MoE until I get better gear.

Dashing Strike is the only skill that isn't tailored to this build. I could put Tempest Rush or Sweeping Wind there, or even Breath of Heaven, but I have difficulty chasing down treasure goblins without it, and my greedy side justifies the ability to kill goblins over surviving :P

It isn't all bad though, as I also use it to move to better places on the battlefield. If I get vortexed or knocked back to a bad location, I can dash to a better one (provided an enemy or destructible is near of course).
Edited by Matthew#1673 on 6/6/2012 8:25 AM PDT
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I've been coasting through hell without problems using this build dual wielding:


I find dashing strike to be an amazing escape tool. Gets you out of jail, can reach far away enemies, and with the rune it increases your dodge chance by a substantial amount. On boss fights I will try and dash every 3 seconds to keep up the dodge. It has saved me many times in rough champ packs as well. It also roots enemies which is nice for those mobs that fly and run away from you.

My earth ally has been a boss for me in hell. The only time he gets destroyed is if he is standing in colors on the floor, but that's how it is for the followers in this game. Not a problem though, the recast is such low spirit. If he is not standing in stuff on the ground he can tank camp packs easy. Also will block hallways for me. Can't forget the nice 10% HP.

I always try to find weapons and helms with extra spirit regen. Having that and dual wielding lets me keep up my buffed mantra's without completely depleting my spirit pool. Also try and find as much ASP as I can.

I actually used Sweeping wind in normal, but started to stay away from it in NM and Hell as I found myself rushing around trying to keep the 3 stack up. This would lead to some bad situations with champ packs.

Lately in hell my gear has started to get a lot better, and I have switched out Mantra of Healing to Mantra of Conviction with the Overawe rune. Killing the enemies fast is just as important as being able to survive them.
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Whenever I consider the debate between seize the initiative and resolve, what always tips the scale for me is the fact that resolve doesn't help for affix ability damage, such as arcane, desecration, etc. Granted, you shouldn't even be getting hit by this stuff -- but it happens, and that's what kills you, not the champ's auto-attack.

Plus, when you're trying to run for it, and you really need as much damage mitigation as possible, resolve does nothing for you.

When I remove seize the initiative and take resolve, I gain 50k effective health when I'm actively fighting, but lose 20k effective health when I'm running away. YMMV.
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Since you're already using LTK. Sweeping Armada rune will solve alot of your problems.

Dash is godly. If i get into details of it, i'm afraid it'll get nerfed.

But, let's just say... if you know how to use Dash well, you won't have to worry much about arcane,firechain, frozen or whatever else.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
Posts: 2,602
I would switch your first passive with resolve OR near death experience. Personally I used Near death, Resolve, and the dex > Armor passives, but now that I am in need of much more resists in inferno I suggest stacking resist all AND one type of resist, and running one with all over resolve or the dex > armor passive. I personally cut out resolve but I'm not sure if that was the right choice yet.

I don't really like your mystic ally... I run breath of wind with the damage as well. I run serrenity with the heal instead of the extra 1 second. I run blind with extra damage (But for minion packs I'll hearth to town and change it so that they have a 60% chance of missing instead of 30%) And I would pick either the resist mantra of healing OR the armor mantra of evasion depending on which is more beneficial.

As far as attacks go I haven't figured out exactly what I would like to use. I am torn between Fists > Dodge (Faster spirit, but I dont like dodge as a stat in general), Deadly reach > armor (50% armor is pretty beast), and crippling wave > dmg reduction (The damage reduction WITH the attack speed reduction to me sounds REALLY nice. I am playing with the idea of switching to this)

My right click is the knockback kick, but I spec it into fire damage for the extra 20% damage it provides.
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Did they fix Pacify? I read it wasn't working properly.
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There are a lot of redundancies in your build.

My Build http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aXQgiY!TUZ!accaZY

Interesting build. I am going to take another look at OWE - what are your unbuffed resists at?

Consider the fire rune for Sweeping Wind, unless you see yourself regularly getting 3 stacks before the timer is up I think you might get more resolve benefits by going with increased range.

Also 1 of the few builds I have seen without Seize - what is your armor at unbuffed (I assume you have no buffed stat from what I can see in your build). Also I assume you are rolling with a shield. I am considering going DW in Hell with two very high dex weapons. I may need to shop for more gear first (possibly with OWE).
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Dyer, unbuffed I was at 499, though I had been using this build when I was low 400 unbuffed as well so it works even at poor gear levels.
Unbuffed armor was just over 4k.

I was sitting at about 59% DR from armor and Resists each, keeping them even.

I had some nice crit and thunderclap helps get and maintain stacks of sweeping wind so I didn't exactly need the extra range - also as was pointed out, resolve only affects the melee attacks - generally the range on sweeping is going to impact anything that can hit me.

I will say though that I switched in Seize for Resolve last night and did have much better luck against elite packs. Admittedly I did not realize that Resolve wasn't reducing their other effects like mortar and fire chains and all of that.

I died from my own stupidity (arcane orbs crossing streams on me while I was playing around low health.. should have popped my serentiy and brought myself back up for safety. The problem with this is that I thought I was safe due to my Near Death Experience.

I was originally of the mind that the passive is useless and I am now 100% back on that sentiment. I don't think it is worth getting at all. If you are appropriately geared for an area the standard abilities and passives should be able to keep you up appropriately. If you are in a situation where you are getting killed off by the mobs then that extra 35% isn't going to do anything for you, especially since there is no lag time where you stop taking damage.

If you are going to die I really don't think NDE is going to save you at all as it adds no other mitigation. I believe its much better to focus on pure survivability rather than wasting a passive on one last chance.
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