Diablo® III

The Unanswered Question


Posts: 179
The repair costs are fine, especially with the changes to monsters in inferno.

Stay alive, and if you get that impossible pack, deal with it as everyone else does. Go around them, farm another area, or start the level again. Its pretty simple stuff.

Also like to mention, I like all of the changes in patch 1.0.3. Mainly because ive taken how it affects me ONLY out of the equation and thought about how they affect the game and game mechanics overall.
Edited by Ajudicator#6934 on 6/7/2012 8:15 PM PDT
Fantastic response. I'd like to say I'm quite impressed with how you are approaching changes in 1.03 to keep things challenging without them being absurd. I could ramble on with just how excited I am and surprised how many seem to affect me personally, but let me spare you that and point to another concern I have about mortars, since you mentioned it.

Another adjustment being made is increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar. Mortar was specifically designed to be an anti-range affix, but many ranged players would just stand even farther away, whereas melee would sometimes get caught in the cross-fire of two Mortars. Increasing the maximum range and the dead zone helps with both of these.

Increasing max range and definitely are fixes that I'm glad will make mortar do what it is supposed to do. I might also ask if this area is based on creature size, or will not need to be because of this adjustment? The particular scenario that I encountered that makes me ask this is that massive creatures like savage beasts were stacked behind and beside each other in such a way that mortar damage was completely inescapable (aside of being out of sight).

A more important question I have is will there be a fix for maintaining the mortar dead zone against corners? Enemies seem content to mortar away at you in close quarters, and if there is a natural or waller wall, the mortar falls there no matter how close it is. Not sure if mortars being able to "melee mortar" players is intentional (you shouldn't get cornered) or something unintentional you would like to fix.
06/07/2012 04:42 PMPosted by Nova
As far as repair costs, for delicate classes there are UNAVOIDABLE deaths. Jailer+desecrate and teleport+firechain are some examples. There is NOTHING player skill wise you can do to avoid these which is already super frustrating. But making that frustrating, unavoidable death cost 5x as much will just add more frustration.

This is simply not true. As a ranged, you have a ton of tools to keep it that way. Perhaps you are focusing too much on 'ZOMG! LOOK AT MY DPS!' and not enough on survivability? How about throwing down a slow trap and a turret, vaulting back and letting loose? They break free, pop another set down, and repeat. Don't wait until they are on top of you then try to react. Anticipate their movements and you'll be able to predict your window of opportunity vs. your defensive mechanics. That's simply if you are a DH, if you are a wizard, I'm inclined to say that you have even more defensive tactics. WD? I have no idea. Haven't even begun to explore that class.
Posts: 86
Interested in seeing how the increased repair costs will change gameplay. Right now, when we play in a party, our DH and Wiz just suicide DPS to burn down an elite one at a time. Granted I don't mind since they're my friends, but a part of me is thinking "Wow.. it's that easy to get elites down as a DH or Wiz huh.." when my monk is dancing between arcane, poison puddles, mortars, wallers, just to get in a punch or two. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind the danger of melee, it's just that there's very little reward for the risk involved in being melee - apart from knowing you're not being rDPS :D

If mobs do less damage there will be even less incentive to stack survivability. Why focus on defense when you can focus on dps and kill everything on screen in 1 second?

Who does that? Not any wizard or witch doctor. (I have a level 60 wiz and 60WD.) Oh, and barbs and monks do quite a bit of DPS. Peeps should stop pretending they don't.

Barbs and monks are melee, they need to balance survivability and dps to be able to stand next to mobs and deal their damage. Ranged chars like Wiz and DH can kill monsters from a screen away, and with enough DPS they can kill them before they can do anything. There are plenty of videos to be found on youtube about OP wizards and DH if you're curious.
...and criticism lets us know how we can improve.

No one should be advised to "quit" the game simply because they don't play the same way you do. Constructive discussion, good. Mean finger-pointing, bad.

It is great to see this type of response from a blue. That said...

As a general question - are these forums (this forum in particular) the best way to provide that feedback? Because as far as I can tell, there isn't a dedicated "Feedback" forum, and this "General Discussion" is mostly cluttered with posts about quitting, refunds, outrageous AH prices, hacking, "Pi, 3.1416", and other fodder.

What is the best way for providing intelligent, constructive feedback such that it can actually reach the eyes and minds of the people that need to see it? I certainly hope the answer is not, "Post in GD and pray some moderator sees it, and after seeing it, takes the effort to pass it on."

Inb4 someone says, "Post in GD and pray some moderator sees it, and after seeing it, takes the effort to pass it on."
Posts: 377
Nice to hear it's being worked on, but I think there's some underlying problems with the stat system that should be fixed before stuff like tweaking mortar.
Another adjustment being made is increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar. Mortar was specifically designed to be an anti-range affix, but many ranged players would just stand even farther away, whereas melee would sometimes get caught in the cross-fire of two Mortars. Increasing the maximum range and the dead zone helps with both of these.[/quote]

For the love of god do not increase the range of mortars which already come from off the screen!
90 Night Elf Druid
Posts: 14
Re repair costs - I think you re working from a false assumption re "ranged zerging", the game is pretty miserable right now in terms of the die/rez/kill elite pattern for some affixes. I'm not corpse running or what not, I'm just trying the only way I understand to kill the enemies. If you think I'm doing it wrong, perhaps have the game provide me constructive tips for either class build, item builds, or what not. But I get one shotted an awful lot.

Already most (bad combination of affix) elites are a money losing proposition. Make it more so together with the horrible lag and I'm just done. In one case I got stuck in a cycle w/ the enemy ON my respawn point w/ red armor and no ability to do anything but quit the game to be able to repair.

I've also had some checkpoints where the game resumes START w/ me in combat w/ elites as opposed to town or somewhere safe. That's just brutally unfair esp because the lag (see below) means I "zone in" at 0 health.

More generally lag is a huge problem: A solid 75% of my deaths are because I go from full health to basically zero while my comp. I play WoW and other games w/ no problems, but since the open beta weekend, my D3 experience is basic things can lag out for full seconds. I regularly run streaming video, etc at a full 50 Mbps down and do uploads with 10-20 Mbps up no problem. This is a D3 specific problem for me.
Posts: 9
I'm a monk and I approve of this.
I just want to thank you guys for taking a look at the disparity and making changes. I pretty much agree with all of it. Even as a melee, I worry about the repair bills, but I guess eventually as I gear up, it'll be less and less of an issue due to our inherent defenses, which I assume will make us harder to kill than an equally high end geared ranged, though at the sacrifice of some damage.

I'll definitely say my current experience in inferno hasn't been fun as a monk. I'm sure there are many that agree with me and plenty that disagree, but I just couldn't justify the amount of work it'd take to get to the point where the later acts would be working as I'd assume they were intended, that melee doesn't play like a 4 second burst kiter.
100 Human Paladin
Posts: 669
Could you take a look at Barbarian's Leap ability while you're adjusting things? It's pretty annoying to have ranged monsters start moving to avoid you while you're mid-air. Those bees are the worst offenders, but it happens with just about everything. The monsters act as if you're already at the landing spot and start moving as a response before you even get there.
Mark my words, the repair costs will end up hurting melee more!

You don't take durability damage only when you die, you also lose durability when you get hit, and melee get hit way more than ranged ever do.

Even if they don't die, melee will be faced with insane repair costs after the patch, just from tanking monster damage all the time.
Repair Costs
One of the more controversial changes in 1.0.3 is the increased repair costs. The design intent of these increased repair costs is to make death more meaningful. One of the top arguments we see against the increased repair costs is "I'm already dying dozens of times to make any progress in Inferno. Don't you see this is going to make this impossible?" This concern is most often brought up by ranged glass cannons. Many melee players respond "increased repair costs seem fine" because they haven't been using death-zerging as a tactic. Melee can't easily death-zerg an enemy down, but ranged can. I don't think the answer is to make death-zerging more attractive for melee; I'd rather make death-zerging a less profitable strategy for ranged.

I play a DH and I am in Nightmare mode to get to the point I die a lot I m not a super player and to me this feels like your punishing a class that the mechanics are different. If this goes through I will be forced to stop playing because all the enjoyment of this game will collapse and I will quiit, and yeah I know my voice don't count because if I quit you don't care..

no your voice doesnt count because you're dying in nightmare. You don't get to free fly your way through this game, and in fact dying a lot at nightmare is an acheivement in of itself
100 Human Paladin
Posts: 267
I have to quote this part:

"Many melee players respond "increased repair costs seem fine""

You have to be joking. I really can't imagine you had a straight face while you wrote that melee said this. I'm trying to come up with some kind of argument against the sheer stupidity of this statement, but I really think it just stands on its own.

Okay, I lied. I'll just add this: You think melee are complaining about Inferno difficulty yet not dying as much as ranged? You think melee don't death zerg A HUNDRED TIMES MORE than ranged, by the simple fact that they die more than ranged and thus have to run back, while praying to baby Jesus that the mob health didn't reset? It's such an easily understood reality of the inconsistency of difficulty against melee that I can't even believe you tried to say this. Melee, if anything, complain the MOST about the repair cost increase. Just stop.

That said, while I appreciate the fixes to the melee things there, none of them really address the actual problems most melee are concerned with - mobs with fire chains running god damn circles around melee, desecrate and frozen mobs being nothing but a zero dps kite fest, molten mobs running all over and around you to make sure they peed all over your carpet. A mortar accidentally hitting me? That's the LEAST of my problems. By far.

Melee either need a damage reduction specifically for affix abilities (normal mob stuff isn't that bad, and our 30% seems to be enough to keep that mostly under control), or mobs need to be reprogrammed to stop making us howl in rage with certain abilities.
Edited by Applemask#1782 on 6/7/2012 8:54 PM PDT
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