Diablo® III

The Unanswered Question

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I play a DH and I am in Nightmare mode to get to the point I die a lot I m not a super player and to me this feels like your punishing a class that the mechanics are different. If this goes through I will be forced to stop playing because all the enjoyment of this game will collapse and I will quiit, and yeah I know my voice don't count because if I quit you don't care..


Except they're only changing the repair costs for lvl 60 items. If you had actually read the AMA you'd know that.

Chill out bro.
Very good point.

Idk why people are upset with increasing repair cost. Even with the current repair cost if I die 2-3 times consecutively I would find it a waste to keep dying and repair. I would know the mobs are too strong/I'm doing something wrong. Go back and farm previous places/revise tactics is what I did, and is also what people should learn to do, especially when 1.0.3 will increase drop rate.

I'm a monk on a2 inferno (if anyone wanna flame me for being a DH or something).
06/07/2012 09:55 PMPosted by Applemask
And for those that aren't farming? The preview option just lost a nice response telling a story of a guy netting 40k gold in 3 hours of playtime after crushing 8-9 elite packs and then getting corpse camped at checkpoints by unkillable elites. Reset the zone? Sure, I'll dump my 5 stacks of NV cause this is guaranteed not to happen, right? http://i.imgur.com/X2B9v.jpg

Dude, I had almost that exact same pack in that cave. Those spiders are absolute bull as a melee. They're intended to hit hard because they have low health. Well, elite spiders do not have low health, so I had three mobs hitting like trucks with enough health to last all the way to enrage. I didn't "death zerg" because it was cheap. I did it because I needed to progress through the damn cave.

Death 1, "well maybe I could do that better, let's try it again."
Death 2, "Okay, let's try that ONE MORE TIME, I'll be EVEN MORE DEFENSIVE."
Death 3, "You know, I don't think I can kill something crushing my dreams with both melee attacks and affix abilities, but I have a five stack so maybe if I just kite it somewhere where I can bypass it.."
Death 4, "WELL VORTEX IS COOL."
Death 12, "THANK GOD IT'S IN A CORNER NOW, TIME TO PROGRESS. SORRY NEIGHBORS, DON'T CALL THE COPS, I'LL KEEP IT DOWN NOW."

Remember though, melee weren't complaining about repair costs. We complained that the ramp up for the later acts was too hard for melee, but not because we were dying an absurdly high number of times. We just logged out and quit because we thought it was hard. Or supernaturally intuited it. Or whatever nonsensical mumbo jumbo they're using to explain that attempt to sell a poor idea.


lol i feel your pain
I feel that the changes which are being suggested here are not actually handling the disparity between melee and ranged in Diablo 3. The changes that are being made are being made to inferno difficulty and to mechanics separate from class adjustments. This is essentially adjusting the difficulty of the game to allow melee to complete it with less difficulty than currently exists. It does not fix the disparity between melee and ranged, but simply makes it unimportant in the final goal of the game.

By reducing damage that mobs do and adjusting the difficulty of the inferno setting you are hoping to allow for an easier experience for melee without requiring the same levels of gear that they currently do. That sounds alright in theory, and would likely solve a great deal of complaints, but I doubt it will have the intended effect that the developers are seeking. As things stand right now there are ranged classes that are building as far glass cannon that they can in order to farm content/complete the game. Many of them do not bother stacking any resistance early because they would rather die a lot farming act 3 than waste their time farming act 1 for nothing. By making the defensive levels to survive act 3 and act 4 mobs more obtainable by nerfing the mobs, you are inviting them to stack limited defense with a threat of repair bills to deter otherwise. However, as things are right now many people who are farming act 3 are stacking base levels of resistance in order to take 1 or 2 hits. It makes the farm much easier and is not that difficult to do. 300 or so resist with some defensive abilities on the bar is all that is really required. If the mobs are nerfed in their ability to kill a player than that player is going to drop resistances back down to this 1 or 2 shot level and up their damage. Or perhaps they will keep their resistances and adjust their skills to allow for a faster/more efficient clear. So far this isn't necessarily a problem either, as it isn't a super big change from farmers. Unfortunately it isn't taking into account the other change the developers are making. By allowing high level items to drop in lower acts, nerfing the damage output of monsters (in and out of group), and changing NV to be more beneficial to full clears of a game rather than just 5 stack boss kills, you are inviting ranged players to dump resistances to a bare minimum in order to have the fastest, most efficient, act 1/2 full clears humanly possible.

The series of changes that are being proposed all at the same time in an effort to help melee out will end up benefiting ranged a great deal as well. Repair bills are not a problem when you have almost no chance of dying during your 15 minute all clear of the dungeons pre-warden Act 1 to Butcher (which has somewhere around 10+ elite packs to kill in the process, maximizing loot). So you might say that melee could do this as well, and you would be right, but the imbalance still exists. Even with an equivalent amount of resist on a barbarian, the damage output will not be nearly the same and the clear will take longer and more gear to do in the first place. Everything that melee can do, ranged can do better and faster. There are very few scenarios where this is not the case. The proposed changes make the game easier, not just for melee, but for everyone as a whole. If you have a well geared ranged who does stack resists, then maybe they can farm act 4 in a reasonable amount of time. The melee would again need significantly more gear to accomplish the same feat.

Inevitably the disparity will remain. This is due to the way the classes are designed. Melee have to take hits in order to deal damage, meaning they have to gear more defensively, meaning they will do less damage. Additionally, many of their defenses against opponents are skill based which means there isn't necessarily room on the skill bar to put in high damage abilities to make up for the resistance requirements. Ranged being able to get by with 2 defensive abilities of their 6, while my Barbarian has 2 to 4 (not to mention passives) in order to accomplish the exact same job is a disparity that will not change with the ease of mobs. It will simply become irrelevant.

Most people at this point are okay with irrelevant disparity as long as they are able to farm and complete the game in a reasonable way/amount of time. This is because the game has no reason to actually compare classes between eachother outside of farming efficiency, and farming efficiency is only really important to people who continue to play the game after beating it. So why is this a problem? Because eventually a comparison between classes will exist in the form of PvP. The class balance disparity will rear its ugly head once again and the nerfed inferno and adjusted repair costs will be entirely irrelevant.

What will likely happen is that these changes will all go live in the next patch and the complaints will die down a little as people are able to complete the game. Some of the dedicated will see the issues I have outlined here start to surface and will take issue, but other than that it will have the desired effect of allowing everyone to beat the game with some effort. Then PvP will release. Ranged characters will build the equivalent of their farming spec with an emphasis on damage and some defensive stats. Melee will need to put room on their action bar to close with and do damage to their ranged opponents while keeping defensive stats high enough to survive the pummeling that they will inevitably receive. Their damage will not be comparable if their survive ability is, and vice versa. This measure can be countered by organized teams of at least 2 or more. This is how WoW handled the problem by not caring very significantly about 1v1 balance or 2v2 balance (eventually). This means that the developers had better have a system where PvP is only competitive at 2+ person groups or the problem will remain as meaningful as it is now. 1v1 will likely remain in ranged favor unless class balance is adjusted.

My post has a lot of hand waving "logical conclusions" which likely won't seem very reasonable to people trying to balance the game right now. However, now is the time to take a look at theses issues because the changes that are being suggested are bandaids to the balance disparity that will tide the masses, it is not a solution.

P.S. If I am trying to clear an act and end up dying (because that happens) and have a 60k repair bill then it is quite possible I won't have the income necessary to pay that. Gold rates need to be high enough to guarantee that a progression player can earn enough while learning to cover their costs. Remember, the AH isn't something everyone uses.


jeez...good one. i was just thinking about pvp before you mentioned it. I dread going vs a dh with my barb the way the game is now, and i have a 60 dh too. Its too much of a cake walk unless its one of those uber item equipped barbs. Then it would be a cake crawl.
Posts: 420
So we're going to talk about deep, philosophical, high concept stuff, huh? How about the deep, philosophical, high-concept assertion that "there was nothing I could do" almost never amounts to good gameplay - and especially not in PvE, and double-especially not in solo play? I will grant you that some games make use of it intelligently, but those games normally don't actually punish the player for failing. See e.g. JRPGS where fights occur that the protagonist is supposed to lose, to demonstrate that (s)he sucks compared to some mid-level bad guy near the beginning of the game. Those games don't slap you with a repair bill for your trouble. They don't force you to reset the game and start over because you lost a fight against a cheap-!@# opponent who paralyzed you and then hit you for 10x your max health in a single hit.

D3's interface is too limited; there aren't enough inputs for player skill, and so the overwhelming majority of the difficulty has to come from either gear checks and/or cheap mechanics where a player can lose without actually having failed (which are basically just gear checks that strip away all illusions of being anything else, and veer easily towards imbalance, as we've seen.)

This is the type of High Concept stuff that needed to have been wrestled with in between D2 and D3, but wasn't.

There are plenty of games that manage to integrate gear checks and skill checks together relatively elegantly. Hell, WoW is pretty long in the tooth, but within the context of group play, it managed it pretty decently for a few years. D3, as it stands now, cannot be one of those games.

The only choice now is whether the lack-of-control mechanics are going to be horribly, inexcusably, punishingly unfair... or just tediously, pointlessly unfair.
06/07/2012 05:22 PMPosted by Lylirra
This game is only for "Diabloholics" you whiners should QUIT the game as you said it. If we can play the game, can you not?


But that's not true at all. While Diablo III may not be for everyone, our goal is to make the game as fun as it possibly can be -- for long-time fans of the franchise, for players just getting started, and for all those people somewhere in the middle -- and criticism lets us know how we can improve.

No one should be advised to "quit" the game simply because they don't play the same way you do. Constructive discussion, good. Mean finger-pointing, bad.

its mainly for noob scrubs though
>increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......... Guess that means the new strategy is to get in their face, spam smoke screen and tank them. I had hopes for this patch giving some benefit to players in Act 2 inferno, especially us demon hunters, but this seems to only be boosting the melee class. I still don't see it making much of a difference at all. Right now, blizzard seems to be focusing on the melee class. Come a month from now, and they will nerf the melee classes benefits and attempt to up the ranged class a bit and so on. Psh. I'm thankful for patch 1.03 and what they are trying to accomplish, but I still don't see myself using all resists as a viable option. Oi. Act 2 hurts.
Alright Blizzard, there is 1 thing and only 1 thing I bring up that can fix all the problems with act 2. Those common jumping enemies that appear in Act 2 (the first enemies that are in Act 2 with the wasps): they are invincible while in the air/jumping. That makes them impossible to dodge without getting hit or spamming smoke screen. You say to yourselves, "well, that's not a bad thing, because melee classes can tank the hits and it provides some balance for ranged classes". Well, go play it act 2 inferno yourselves. It is not balanced whatsoever. You want a quick fix that will immediately make inferno less of a brick wall? Don't make those jumping enemies completely invulnerable to damage in Act 2. Us demon hunters, for example, have to use smoke screen 3-4 times just to kill one of those enemies, which leaves us wiped clean and dead in the next few seconds. It's not balanced at all. If those enemies weren't invincible while jumping, that would solve a good majority of issues with Act 2 and onward.
06/07/2012 10:58 PMPosted by Karrow
They don't force you to reset the game and start over because you lost a fight against a cheap-!@# opponent who paralyzed you and then hit you for 10x your max health in a single hit.


^ THIS.

Seriously, when the theorycrafters are forced to reset a game due to a bad elite spawn combination (I'm talking about people who grinded hard and pay real close attention to what they wear) this stops being fun and ends up being redundant.

Hell, I don't see how this is called "fun" to begin with.
Edited by BreakingMad#2745 on 6/7/2012 11:13 PM PDT
I think the changes are going to be great.

  • Reducing mob damage allow the melee classes to use a more offensive setup
  • Higher repair cost (with reduced mob damage) would encourage ranged classes to be more balanced, instead of being a glass-cannon, thus further reduces the DPS gap


Also, just on the repair cost, I don't see why it's such an issue. If you're dying frequently then it just means that you're under-geared so you really should be farming instead of trying to zerg your way through it. The increase drop rate in 1.0.3 will make farming easier so this shouldn't be a problem.

P.S. I play a DH and am currently in a2 inferno.
Edited by Shien#6158 on 6/7/2012 11:13 PM PDT
I second this. As a melee (Barb), I often go from full health to dead seemingly instantaneously. Some nights I rage quite and go play my baby DH. Making death more painful will not make the game more fun.
You did some mistakes, acknowledged them and went ahead to fix them.

Kudos Blizzard, don't let the QQ demoralize you, they just don't know how to react. You guys are doing a fine job.
Community Manager
Posts: 3,202
06/07/2012 10:54 PMPosted by Sephrinx
Well, you guys did an absolutely horrible job, this is one of the most annoying to play boring games that has been released this decade. And for a diablo game, it's a pathetic joke.


Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

And that's okay. If you have negative feedback, though, please try to be more specific about what it is that you don't like, and (most importantly) why. Simply stating "YOU SUCK BLIZZARD" doesn't really explain to us what you're unhappy with, and it gives us little to no insight into what it is that you actually want.

Even if we ultimately happen to disagree with you, your voice is important and we'll listen to what you have to say. But as I mentioned earlier: "Constructive discussion, good. Mean finger-pointing, bad." It's easier for us to give consideration to ideas and concerns that we're able to fully understand.
Edited by Lylirra on 6/7/2012 11:32 PM PDT
100 Dwarf Paladin
13475
Posts: 74
Did Mr. Cheng have any comments concerning how the damage is still quite disparate? I understand the direction 1.03 will be taking us, but that doesn't change the fact that equivalently geared melee vs ranged always has the ranged far ahead in the damage category.
Did Mr. Cheng have any comments concerning how the damage is still quite disparate? I understand the direction 1.03 will be taking us, but that doesn't change the fact that equivalently geared melee vs ranged always has the ranged far ahead in the damage category.


I think that they intend that to be a side effect of the changes to enemy damage and repair costs. The need for ridiculous levels of defense on melee means your damage suffers. The "screw it, there's no point in running any defense" issue for ranged means stacking as much damage as possible. If they can make it so that melee needs a little less defense, then those melee can focus a bit more on offense. If they can make it so that ranged feels a need to have some defense (because it's no longer pointless), the idea is to have our damage come down with that as we shift our itemization priorities.

I don't know if it will actually work this way, or to what extent. And I don't know if it will be enough if it does work. But I think that's what they're going for.

I guess they want to try larger system adjustments to see where classes are before adjusting them too much further. Which I understand to some extent, but actually find a bit disappointing, tbh. I'd really like to see some good solid class adjustments. But changes they've made so far have in some cases seemed to break things rather than properly fixing the original issue despite other options existing (how the heck is Crit Mass actually supposed to work for Wizards, now? And why do they have so many melee abilities if they aren't supposed to use them?). I'd like to see some of those changes fixed, and then some solid class balance. It seems so slow, but I guess they want the overall system our classes operate in solidified first. And if slow means no repeats of things like the Crit Mass thing, then okay, I'll wait.
Edited by Tiakatt#1643 on 6/7/2012 11:45 PM PDT

Another adjustment being made is increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar. Mortar was specifically designed to be an anti-range affix, but many ranged players would just stand even farther away, whereas melee would sometimes get caught in the cross-fire of two Mortars. Increasing the maximum range and the dead zone helps with both of these.


Does this adjustment include fixing the mortar dead zone next to walls? Currently, mortar will shoot at point blank range if a wall prevents it from shooting further away, which is probably a bigger issue than being in the crossfire.

Some other fixes I would recommend.
- arcane sentries: they will often hit you even if the graphic doesn't seem to, especially if you're higher or lower than the sentry. Either fix the graphic, or fix the hitbox.
- frozen: sometimes the frost blasts hide inside terrain. give them a see-through effect like fallen maniacs?
- molten and plague: multiple instances of this being cast stack and hide each other which is a huge problem with small, fast hordes (try stepping in 5x molten with a side order of plague). Smaller monsters will push molten under you just by being in melee range (this is un-intended, right?), and there are loads of instances where molten will damage you even though the effect itself is not visible (a good example being the lift/bridge during the catapult quest). Either fix it so you can differentiate between five stacks of molten and one stack of molten, or stop it from doing combined damage. Definitely stop plague from hiding it, and definitely fix it so you see the effect where you're gonna take damage.
may i add my two cents?

mayb u guys (blizzard) can make the stat bonus for dmg reduction more higher?
i.e str --> armor
dex --->dodge
i believe str should give more armor and dex should give more dodge.

maybe give all mobs aoe dmg that do little bits of dmg,
melee wont feel heaps of tiny hits but range will.
Posts: 145
Thanks for beginning to address the massive disparity between melee and ranged. As it stands, almost every single affix is generally worse for melee than range. I can't say how much i hate it when I'm trying to chase down A3 inferno champion bats only to mortered to death because they love running all over the place, spreading out, and then blasting me with morters alongside with their already hard-hitting ranged attack.

However, I have to ask... what about mobs putting molten under you while you are standing still? Is this game design to make melee classes more skill based like fire chains, or is it just an unintended consequence of the affix?
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