Diablo® III

The Unanswered Question

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85 Troll Shaman
7735
06/07/2012 04:42 PMPosted by Fizzbin
Another thoughtful and well reasoned post by a dev that demonstrates the game is in good hands.


Wow. It is amazing people can think that. Diablo 3 is most certainly NOT in the right hands. The game is crippled and tedious and plays like a MMO. And they treat it like an MMO.
85 Troll Shaman
7735
06/10/2012 12:25 AMPosted by jwaz
I play a DH and I am in Nightmare mode to get to the point I die a lot I m not a super player and to me this feels like your punishing a class that the mechanics are different. If this goes through I will be forced to stop playing because all the enjoyment of this game will collapse and I will quiit, and yeah I know my voice don't count because if I quit you don't care..


I suggest you try and use AH to get better equipment, you shouldn't be having too hard a time in Nightmare then.


How is that fun? Progressing through using an AH is flat out silly and unrewarding. And drops are so insanely sucky that even as Blizzard has admitted they want you to use the AH
sand wasps arent the only AI changes id like to see, the moloks (demon drake things) have a nasty habit of kiting my barbarian all over the place before i can finally catch up and finish it off.
Edited by BaelRahl#1123 on 6/10/2012 8:46 AM PDT
this piece here is a copy paste from a Player named Orich who brings up a vary good point that i feel should be on this board.

" There are fundamental flaws in your logic in a few areas of your comments. The goal of my post is to explain where those flaws happen and to provide a better perspective on the issues at hand and their possible solutions.

In order of importance :

Enemy Health and Damage

The Problem: Because of over-tuned outgoing damage thresholds and mob health in Acts 2-4, melee require adjustments for viability at correct gear levels and ranged require incentives to gear defensively.

Goal: To bridge the disparity between ranged and melee and allow both to be viable in Inferno Acts 2+

Logic: We will adjust outgoing damage and health thresholds on monsters to provide viability to melee as well as incent ranged to gear defensively.

Ranged
By implementing both lower health and lower damage thresholds of mobs, ranged will be afforded with two options :
1. Sacrificing their immensely high damage capabilities for the opportunity to allow a few more non-killing damaging blows
2. To continue their trend of extreme DPS builds which will not only still be viable, but will be even MORE effective against weaker mobs.

Melee
By implementing lower health and lower damage thresholds of mobs, melee are now afforded :
1. Correctly "ilvl" geared melee will now be viable in their respective Inferno Acts.

Flaw in logic:

In order to make melee more viable and to "bridge the gap of disparity", you have simultaneously made ranged even MORE viable in current damage builds as well as afforded them a second `defensive` build.

The goal of bridging the disparity gap only grows wider, as now the efficiency and viability of ranged only increases with these changes.

A more correct way of looking at the problem is this :

Melee take too much damage and don't deal enough.
Ranged are able to deal immense damage while mitigating risk by damaging from 1+ screens away.

The problem isn't the overtuning of the content, the problem is with the class abilities themselves. The content isn't too difficult, there is no reason to nerf it.

1. Melee needs to mitigate more damage

2. Ranged needs more risk for the reward of going glass cannon. Wizards with heat seeking missiles don't even need to be in Line of Sight of mobs, nevermind be on the same screen as them. There is no incentive to go defensive stats, regardless if they can take 1 or 5 hits. They can simply disintegrate mobs from 2 screens away, or from the next hallway, around the corner, through the door, to the mobs that are sitting in their blizzard.

Damage Reduction in Co-op

Problem: 110% increased damage per member of a party is too high for melee to competently tank and/or dps in group play.

Goal: To make melee more viable in group play.

Logic: Remove the damage increase for multi-player play to make melee more viable in group play.

By removing the increase damage dealing component completely, you are creating an enormous disparity between solo and multiplayer play. Furthermore, you are once again removing risk from DPS-centric ranged builds, creating yet another disparity between ranged and melee.

A more proper way of looking at the problem is addressing the melee class specifically, not changing your entire design concept to accommodate one class disregarding its extremely positive impact on another.

Repair Costs

Problem: There is a lack of proper punishment for player deaths. Ranged have little penalty for death-zerging mobs. Because melee have no ability to accomplish this, this has little impact on them.

Goal: To increase the punishment of death and incent players not to die.

Logic: Increase repair costs by a tremendous amount to incent players to live more.

In order to incent ranged players not to death-zerg, you are increasing repair costs to make that unaffordable. The flaw in logic here is, you are once again disregarding the impact on melee.

Not to be redundant, but please understand that ranged players do not disregard defensive stats because its "inconvenient", they do it because they don't need to. Ranged players can mitigate deaths by mitigating risk by not being in the same zip-code as the mobs they are fighting.

Melee, however, ALWAYS have to be next to a mob if they want to do damage. Ranged don't die the most in this game, melee do. This solution only further increases the disparity between melee and ranged.

My closing thoughts / opinions:

Besides some extreme overtunes (ie. The tounge-lasher mobs that are overtuned by 2x, or the inability for on-hit regeneration on shielded/invuln mobs, etc.) the difficulty of Inferno is not the problem.

The problem is range's ability to overcome these challenges in far less gear than melee by damaging mobs with extreme damage, from extreme distances.

I am for leaving the difficulty as it is with finetuning some of the mobs -- but more importantly, make it as difficult for them as it is for me. Don't make it viable for me simultaneously making it easier and MORE viable for them. Why would that make me want to stay melee?

With Love,

Orich (Monk since day 1 with the receding hairline to prove it) "
06/07/2012 11:28 PMPosted by Lylirra
Well, you guys did an absolutely horrible job, this is one of the most annoying to play boring games that has been released this decade. And for a diablo game, it's a pathetic joke.


Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

And that's okay. If you have negative feedback, though, please try to be more specific about what it is that you don't like, and (most importantly) why. Simply stating "YOU SUCK BLIZZARD" doesn't really explain to us what you're unhappy with, and it gives us little to no insight into what it is that you actually want.

Even if we ultimately happen to disagree with you, your voice is important and we'll listen to what you have to say. But as I mentioned earlier: "Constructive discussion, good. Mean finger-pointing, bad." It's easier for us to give consideration to ideas and concerns that we're able to fully understand.


well range cant build defensibly because we may take a hit but cant take a 2nd hit, so we are there to kite enemies with no end, melee is painful but is still doable with enough gear, i watched kripparians videos over and over and he seem to do really good, 5 stacks diablo kills without skipping any pack prove that melee or at least barbs are fine while you see the best geared DH die every 10 sec in act IV due to unavoidable damage.

there is no way to keep up the damage of the mobs, health gloves need to either drop more for range @ range or the healing spells some range have need to be % of current life instead of % damage done.

in the next patch you are making melee even more viable than range, this need to stop, in hardcore the 1st diablo kill is going to be a barbarian and no one else would even keep up.

right now is happening with krip in act III and 1 of his RANGE friends already dead to unavoidable damage and latency, if you close that gap even more im sure he will get diablo hardcore in less than 1 day of patch release.

range may avoid damage but there is no reason why range cant tank damage as melee can, in solo play is kite or die and even when build full resist armor vita with low dps as melee we end up dead. there are mobs that cant be kited, this said mobs are also a lot in single player games, our mercs cant really hold agro or even take damage either because even at full resist rings stamina they wont take more than 3 hits.

you need to stop balancing the game around melee taking 30% less damage or reduce damage by range proyectiles and attacks by 30%, because atm we cant keep up with the current damage and melee can.

isnt hard to find crazy barb builds that are posible to use even in act IV while for most range is just 1 build viable.
06/10/2012 08:31 AMPosted by Anaiya
Another thoughtful and well reasoned post by a dev that demonstrates the game is in good hands.


Wow. It is amazing people can think that. Diablo 3 is most certainly NOT in the right hands. The game is crippled and tedious and plays like a MMO. And they treat it like an MMO.

Funny thing about that is it is clear that even the developers are clueless as to what they are doing. They contradict themselves repeatedly in what they say versus what they do. They just said you will play our way or you won't play at all. Before they said they wouldn't do knee jerk changes yet they just did.

It is sad, but hey being 2 faced is how to run a business now a days right?
I Hope you guys fix the one hit kill, my demon hunter until inferno had a life steal build and i loved it(Worked just fine tanking the creeps). But after i joined inferno.. its just glass cannon all day long.
[quote]well range cant build defensibly because we may take a hit but cant take a 2nd hit, so we are there to kite enemies with no end, melee is painful but is still doable with enough gear, i watched kripparians videos over and over and he seem to do really good, 5 stacks diablo kills without skipping any pack prove that melee or at least barbs are fine while you see the best geared DH die every 10 sec in act IV due to unavoidable damage.

there is no way to keep up the damage of the mobs, health gloves need to either drop more for range @ range or the healing spells some range have need to be % of current life instead of % damage done.

in the next patch you are making melee even more viable than range, this need to stop, in hardcore the 1st diablo kill is going to be a barbarian and no one else would even keep up.

right now is happening with krip in act III and 1 of his RANGE friends already dead to unavoidable damage and latency, if you close that gap even more im sure he will get diablo hardcore in less than 1 day of patch release.

range may avoid damage but there is no reason why range cant tank damage as melee can, in solo play is kite or die and even when build full resist armor vita with low dps as melee we end up dead. there are mobs that cant be kited, this said mobs are also a lot in single player games, our mercs cant really hold agro or even take damage either because even at full resist rings stamina they wont take more than 3 hits.

you need to stop balancing the game around melee taking 30% less damage or reduce damage by range proyectiles and attacks by 30%, because atm we cant keep up with the current damage and melee can.

isnt hard to find crazy barb builds that are posible to use even in act IV while for most range is just 1 build viable.


I highlighted the most ignorant parts of your posts. By ignorant, i mean total garbage sprouted by someone who clearly has trouble kiting and, despite never having played any of the melee classes, assumes melee have it much easier.
Edited by TheOnlyAce#6586 on 6/10/2012 9:25 AM PDT
Reading whole 31 pages about survivability.

.. Excluding boss fight ..
Did any of you have any chance to do a 1-on-1 fight with a mob?

Mobs in Diablo3 usually come in a pack of 3 or more, or sometimes as "horde"

Let's say, 3 Monsters hitting you for 200k damage each
(with 70% Damage Reduction = 7000 Armor, 70% resistance = 700 All Resist --> 18k DMG)
(Melee take around 13k DMG with their 30% innate reduction)
How can you survive that without having 55k/40k HP (That's about 1600VIT/1250VIT)

That's minimum status requirement for mobs tanking... which required a high stats item.
I still don't see the point for changing my Equipment for survivability in this case

There is "NO" difference between 1-hit dead and 3-hit dead in this very-common scenario...
Melee take a lot of pain acquiring high defensive gears to be able to fight with mob packs.
Ranged ... Just spam high DPS... --> Everything done.

Average Good Ranged Char deal 55k DPS
Average Good Melee Char deal 20k DPS

55k DPS range with 1hit amount of hp, but stay far far away from mob can deal > 55k dmg
30K DPS melee with 3hit amount of hp, can stay for a second and deal 30k damage
20K DPS melee with 9hit amount of hp, can stay for 3 seconds and deal 60k damage

No matter how much HP you have... the maximum extra hp you can get with potion is 12500 HP per 30 seconds... Skill for monk surviability last for 4 second with a cooldown of 20 second ... now you have about 8 second maximum (including potion/serenity/heal) to put as much as damage you can (which monk won't have more than 30k) .. to take a mob-pack down, if you can't do that then fall back fight again.. Sounds impossible ?

Do some calc again.
Elite HP = 2.5 million
Good Monk has 30k DPS and have 10 second survivability every about 30 seconds .. which mean to kill a single Elite .. monk need 80 loops of hit-and-run = 800-2400 seconds ... and now we have "Enrage timer" kicked-in at 60 second... Sounds impossible again ?

Assume that you died... (Surely you will) you have
3,3,5,8,12 sec cooldown .. and elite will fully respawn every 10 seconds.... Elite respawn but your death cooldown is not reset... Sounds impossible again and again ?

That's why people usually skip elites and farm on a monster you don't want to (such as goblin, vase, pot, iskatul, tyreal farming)

Now you are going to punish good player with "Higher Repair cost" ?

What Blizzard were trying to say is ... to make the game playable for everyone try hard enough. What they did to the game is ... "TOTALLY OPPOSITE"

**********

Instead trying to nerf everything down ... (Negative way to balance the game)
Just give some Buff to appropiate thing.
You can buff monster to kill range more effective if you also provide a way for player to play with that thing. You can buff player of some class to do more DPS or has higher defense if that buff don't make some class outclass others.

Nerfing means less fun, Buffing means more fun.
Blizzard always take the "less fun" way for players.
Edited by Foizy#1662 on 6/10/2012 1:08 PM PDT
Death zerging is pretty much the only viable strategy against reflect damage packs that aren't casters. Just saying.
L2P. You're playing the easiest class in the game with the highest DPS. Honestly, worry about getting yourself to 60 first (where theses changes take place) before worrying about the gold. I think this will be challenge enough for you.

06/10/2012 12:51 PMPosted by Novaflare
Death zerging is pretty much the only viable strategy against reflect damage packs that aren't casters. Just saying.


Go naked then. Or just kite them to a corner and avoid the corner. No imagination from the ranged classes. "I can't DPS it down while standing still, it's broken!" QQ some more.
Edited by Omniwang#1576 on 6/10/2012 1:28 PM PDT

It's good to see near universal agreement on this issue


It's SO not universal. Way to skip over everything you didn't want to read.
well range cant build defensibly because we may take a hit but cant take a 2nd hit, so we are there to kite enemies with no end, melee is painful but is still doable with enough gear, i watched kripparians videos over and over and he seem to do really good, 5 stacks diablo kills without skipping any pack prove that melee or at least barbs are fine while you see the best geared DH die every 10 sec in act IV due to unavoidable damage.

there is no way to keep up the damage of the mobs, health gloves need to either drop more for range @ range or the healing spells some range have need to be % of current life instead of % damage done.

in the next patch you are making melee even more viable than range, this need to stop, in hardcore the 1st diablo kill is going to be a barbarian and no one else would even keep up.

right now is happening with krip in act III and 1 of his RANGE friends already dead to unavoidable damage and latency, if you close that gap even more im sure he will get diablo hardcore in less than 1 day of patch release.

range may avoid damage but there is no reason why range cant tank damage as melee can, in solo play is kite or die and even when build full resist armor vita with low dps as melee we end up dead. there are mobs that cant be kited, this said mobs are also a lot in single player games, our mercs cant really hold agro or even take damage either because even at full resist rings stamina they wont take more than 3 hits.

you need to stop balancing the game around melee taking 30% less damage or reduce damage by range proyectiles and attacks by 30%, because atm we cant keep up with the current damage and melee can.

isnt hard to find crazy barb builds that are posible to use even in act IV while for most range is just 1 build viable.


wow...i am amazed on how opposite our experiences are.
From my point of view (and I am playing ranged and melee chars) this is the wrong approach.

When monsters are implemented, that - by pure chance - onehit everything or cannot be avoided at any cost and at the same time can be damaged and remain damaged after character death, this will result in one of the following tactics:

1.) Pull them to the edge of the map, then ignore them ... if possible.
2.) Deathzerg them.
3.) Close game, start new one, hope for better affixes.

All three approaches are tedious, frustrating and not at all hack and slay style. So this must be changed. But the solution provided by Blizzard does only punish the often unavoidable tactics instead of fixing the main problem: the ridiculous combination of champion pack affixes.

Making dying more painful will only increase frustration. I get the feeling that people complimenting Blizzard for that do this out of spite, because they feel ranged characters deserve to be punished because melee characters have another problem, that they cannot avoid the ridiculously high damage. They don't see that instead of making the gaming even more frustrating than it already is for other people, the problem could be fixed ... FOR ALL OF US!
Edited by Piawanegawa#2663 on 6/11/2012 12:25 AM PDT
06/07/2012 04:21 PMPosted by Lylirra
A ranged player can do a huge amount of damage to an elite enemy, die, respawn, and basically attrition the enemy down with repeated deaths
This isn't completely true. Not in inferno anyway. After about 3 or so deaths the respawn timer is so long (10 seconds or so) that most of the damage done is already healed by the enemies...ESPECIALLY if it's an extra health enemy. Once you're up to 15+ seconds respawn timer..it's impossible to have any advantage on this. Two suggestions I have regarding elites for both ranged and melee....Don't let elites spawn near entrances/waypoints...it's annoying getting camped and spawn killed the second I enter a zone (mostly the last quest on Act 3's waypoint..nearly ALWAYS an elite pack here and all the spiders make it impossible to skip). Get rid of elites healing when you're dead. With the pointless respawn timer that doesnt seem to be leaving us, elites healing is just pure unfair. Extra health is pretty common (for me at least) and getting two out of three down to 25% HP before getting killed once is awesome...but then I respawn and they're back up to 50% HP. I die again after bringing them back down to about 10-15%...longer respawn..they're up to 75%. I bring them back down really low, die, respawn....100%. I respawn, ENRAGE..INSTANT DEATH. RESTART GAME because the pathways in the end of Act 3 are cluttered with enemies and/or are just too tiny to skip try and skip elites in.
06/11/2012 12:30 AMPosted by Kougeru
A ranged player can do a huge amount of damage to an elite enemy, die, respawn, and basically attrition the enemy down with repeated deaths
This isn't completely true. Not in inferno anyway. After about 3 or so deaths the respawn timer is so long (10 seconds or so) that most of the damage done is already healed by the enemies...


The monster isn't be healed. It's being respawn which cause all DOT,Effect,Enrage Debuff disappear too.
85 Human Paladin
10975
06/07/2012 04:42 PMPosted by Nova
As far as repair costs, for delicate classes there are UNAVOIDABLE deaths. Jailer+desecrate and teleport+firechain are some examples. There is NOTHING player skill wise you can do to avoid these which is already super frustrating. But making that frustrating, unavoidable death cost 5x as much will just add more frustration.


how is jailer desecrate unavoidable ? .. dont all classes have a CC breaking skill ?

and teleport firechains ? .. really .. thats probly at the bottom of the list for "problem combos" ... but maybe thats just me

while i have only gotten 3 classes to inferno so far .. i have yet to find ANY unavoidable damage outside of scripted boss fights

just because YOU cant avoid it .. doesnt mean its not possible .. it just means you ( or whoevers website you read to build your char cause learning by doing is too hurd ) hasnt figured it out yet
Wow. I'm impressed by your answer. I am glad you have acknowledged you mistake and are taking steps to fix it. I am glad I decided to be paitent to see what happens. I was on the fence for a while with just quiting and buying a different game.

That being said, I actually thought repair costs were too expensive. I play a Barbarian and die alot in act 2. There were times when I had to grab a different toon and farm act 1 just to make money to repair my main. lol

Overall, I am satisfied with the responce from Blizzard. I think that if you keep communication open with your customer, you'll find a little less qq. Just be honest, let us know what you're doing to fix issues, and most important, don't say things are fine when they aren't. Looking forward to playing 1.03. Anyone have any idea when it will be implemented?
how is jailer desecrate unavoidable ? .. dont all classes have a CC breaking skill ?and teleport firechains ? .. really .. thats probly at the bottom of the list for "problem combos" ... but maybe thats just mewhile i have only gotten 3 classes to inferno so far .. i have yet to find ANY unavoidable damage outside of scripted boss fights just because YOU cant avoid it .. doesnt mean its not possible .. it just means you ( or whoevers website you read to build your char cause learning by doing is too hurd ) hasnt figured it out yet


Actually, there are times when there are unavoidable conditions. Here are a couple of examples:

When playin my Demon Hunter, I kite to kil stuff. Well, when you are trying to kite with a glass cannon and you get pulled to the mob repeatedly when aoe crap is on the ground, you can't not get pulled into it, thus that makes it unavoidable.

On my Barb, yes I have an ability to get me out of sticky situations on my build called Leap. I love leap. Sadly, there is a 10 second cd. So, when walls get put up around me and there is poison or fire crap on the ground, I'll leap. Now if only their abilities were on a 10 second cd too, but they aren't. They will do it again, my ability is on cd, thus makes the next on unavoidable.
Wouldn't u say the reason mellee do lessdps then range is survivability?

You can't make a character balanced on dps but 3x the survivability.

Barbs need a buff, I just don't want every class playing the same.
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