Diablo® III

The Unanswered Question

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100 Orc Hunter
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Posts: 259
06/11/2012 05:31 AMPosted by Denegroth
As far as repair costs, for delicate classes there are UNAVOIDABLE deaths. Jailer+desecrate and teleport+firechain are some examples. There is NOTHING player skill wise you can do to avoid these which is already super frustrating. But making that frustrating, unavoidable death cost 5x as much will just add more frustration.


how is jailer desecrate unavoidable ? .. dont all classes have a CC breaking skill ?

and teleport firechains ? .. really .. thats probly at the bottom of the list for "problem combos" ... but maybe thats just me

while i have only gotten 3 classes to inferno so far .. i have yet to find ANY unavoidable damage outside of scripted boss fights

just because YOU cant avoid it .. doesnt mean its not possible .. it just means you ( or whoevers website you read to build your char cause learning by doing is too hurd ) hasnt figured it out yet


I don't believe you for a god damn second...
With the next pacht 1.0.3 Blizzard will lost many of Players!

My Freinds and me go to work every day. We have friends, family and a girlfriend. We havn't the time to farm gold to buy us the gear and now you want to increase the repair costs?!
Additionally We want to FIND the gear an not buy it! However, we had a little plus at the end of the evening when we go to bed and maybe in a few weeks we can buy us something.
When we play together at the evening, we die around 10 times in inferno. That make around 15k gold repair costs, when we have earned 50k gold at the evening. If you increase the repair costs there is no reasen to play the game beacause we (casual) Players make maybe 1k at the evening and die all the time an can't buy anything.... I hope you understand. Sry my English isn't very well.

You fix the game only for the professionals and not for "normal" people. That isn't fair! We've payed the same money and want to play it, but how when Blizzard think only at maybe 5% of all.... i hope you understand.

I come from Germany and the bigger part of the people here are very sad that the game is built on the auctionhous. The most dont want to farm gold or buy gold or buy for 1000k gold a item or buy a Item for money, but HOW CAN WE GET THE ITEMS WITHOUT THE AUCTIONSHOUSE?! HARDLY EVER, if we are casuals and have not such time as a student or so... ;P

Many peaple say to me that Torchlight 2 is the better Diablo 3 befor release and i answered that can't be true, but now i think it can be realy true.

I have so much to say how many things going wrong with D3, e.g. inferno plays like beta or there is no way to play offline, but my english...sry!

I hope only in the future there will be a way to play the game further without so many frustration like in the moment, especially when i read so stupid Hotfix...
Greetings from Germany!
Wouldn't u say the reason mellee do lessdps then range is survivability?

You can't make a character balanced on dps but 3x the survivability.

Barbs need a buff, I just don't want every class playing the same.


Not being hit at all is 100x survivability. Melee has to be hit to do damage. An equally geared Ranged character dies when they can't kite particular mobs, whereas the melee character dies to most of the mobs.

Melee classes are great for the RMT AH, we need very specific gear and its expensive.

That is a balancing issue. On the same current Maths, a DH only actually does damage every 4-5 seconds.

Buff a barbs damage to the level of a DH, then you need to buff a dh's survivability to that of a barb.

And barb survivability needs to be buffed as what you said above - they need to be hit.
Repair CostsOne of the more controversial changes in 1.0.3 is the increased repair costs. The design intent of these increased repair costs is to make death more meaningful. One of the top arguments we see against the increased repair costs is "I'm already dying dozens of times to make any progress in Inferno. Don't you see this is going to make this impossible?" This concern is most often brought up by ranged glass cannons. Many melee players respond "increased repair costs seem fine" because they haven't been using death-zerging as a tactic. Melee can't easily death-zerg an enemy down, but ranged can. I don't think the answer is to make death-zerging more attractive for melee; I'd rather make death-zerging a less profitable strategy for ranged.


Just out of curiosity, did you somehow think that people were death-zerging because it was just too much fun, and that needed to stop before somebody got hurt? I mean, dying is already sooooo much fun for the players, why not add insult to injury and make it more expensive?

Honestly, if death-zerging is an issue, than there is something fundamentally flawed in the game that won't be fixed by "discouraging such naughty behavior". If a war of attrition is the best way, or only way, to progress, then the fault lies with the game design, not the player behavior. Dying is not a fun strategy, nobody uses it unless they have no other choice. Or unless the other choices suck so much worse than dying. Make the other choices less sucky, not dying more sucky, and then death-zerging won't be an issue.
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The dude abides, nice post dev! Keep up the great work. As a patient beta tester, blizzard is committed and listens. It just will take time to continue developing an amazing game.
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I don't get it I don't see one place where he addresses the original question , yet your praising them for this response? All he says is changes are being made. Well that is great I've plans to one day pay off my absurd mortgage , but that day is not here...
90 Troll Death Knight
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How in the world does raising repair costs help anything in this respect? Ok, so you're just going to make it more expensive for MELEE and RANGED. It doesn't close the gap, it just makes it so now everyone pays more and needs more gold and goes to the RMAH. Nice try... If you want ranged to stop death zerging, make SURVIVABILITY be attainable for less than oh, 30mil? Oh, no, wait, again that would circumvent the RMAH! So, cost more gold and still unlikely to attain the ability to take more than 1 hit... win/win for RMAH!
Edited by Checkm8#1106 on 6/11/2012 1:44 PM PDT
You know, I feel the same as most players with this game, especially melee like myself, when I state that it has felt like a rocky start. I try to be patient and keep in mind that this is an evolving game and there will be many updates, patches, and expansions as time goes on. As a casual gamer, no I don't have the lock on being a good AH day trader, I always seem to be a little behind the curve on the best spot for this or that before a change, but regardless of all this it has been a DECADE folks; no matter what the struggle I really, really want to love this game. And then Blizzard goes and gives feedback like this. Epic. This kind of feedback and notice of concerns, I feel, really just ups my faith in the future direction of this game and this development team. I am totally psyched. I never considered myself a long time gamer of any one game but this might be the one. I for one am excited for what is coming next.
With the next pacht 1.0.3 Blizzard will lost many of Players!

My Freinds and me go to work every day. We have friends, family and a girlfriend. We havn't the time to farm gold to buy us the gear and now you want to increase the repair costs?!
Additionally We want to FIND the gear an not buy it! However, we had a little plus at the end of the evening when we go to bed and maybe in a few weeks we can buy us something.
When we play together at the evening, we die around 10 times in inferno. That make around 15k gold repair costs, when we have earned 50k gold at the evening. If you increase the repair costs there is no reasen to play the game beacause we (casual) Players make maybe 1k at the evening and die all the time an can't buy anything.... I hope you understand. Sry my English isn't very well.

You fix the game only for the professionals and not for "normal" people. That isn't fair! We've payed the same money and want to play it, but how when Blizzard think only at maybe 5% of all.... i hope you understand.

I come from Germany and the bigger part of the people here are very sad that the game is built on the auctionhous. The most dont want to farm gold or buy gold or buy for 1000k gold a item or buy a Item for money, but HOW CAN WE GET THE ITEMS WITHOUT THE AUCTIONSHOUSE?! HARDLY EVER, if we are casuals and have not such time as a student or so... ;P

Many peaple say to me that Torchlight 2 is the better Diablo 3 befor release and i answered that can't be true, but now i think it can be realy true.

I have so much to say how many things going wrong with D3, e.g. inferno plays like beta or there is no way to play offline, but my english...sry!

I hope only in the future there will be a way to play the game further without so many frustration like in the moment, especially when i read so stupid Hotfix...
Greetings from Germany!


Awesome post. I had the same thoughts myself. Would like to see this particular question addressed.
With the next pacht 1.0.3 Blizzard will lost many of Players!

My Freinds and me go to work every day. We have friends, family and a girlfriend. We havn't the time to farm gold to buy us the gear and now you want to increase the repair costs?!
Additionally We want to FIND the gear an not buy it! However, we had a little plus at the end of the evening when we go to bed and maybe in a few weeks we can buy us something.
When we play together at the evening, we die around 10 times in inferno. That make around 15k gold repair costs, when we have earned 50k gold at the evening. If you increase the repair costs there is no reasen to play the game beacause we (casual) Players make maybe 1k at the evening and die all the time an can't buy anything.... I hope you understand. Sry my English isn't very well.

You fix the game only for the professionals and not for "normal" people. That isn't fair! We've payed the same money and want to play it, but how when Blizzard think only at maybe 5% of all.... i hope you understand.

I come from Germany and the bigger part of the people here are very sad that the game is built on the auctionhous. The most dont want to farm gold or buy gold or buy for 1000k gold a item or buy a Item for money, but HOW CAN WE GET THE ITEMS WITHOUT THE AUCTIONSHOUSE?! HARDLY EVER, if we are casuals and have not such time as a student or so... ;P

Many peaple say to me that Torchlight 2 is the better Diablo 3 befor release and i answered that can't be true, but now i think it can be realy true.

I have so much to say how many things going wrong with D3, e.g. inferno plays like beta or there is no way to play offline, but my english...sry!

I hope only in the future there will be a way to play the game further without so many frustration like in the moment, especially when i read so stupid Hotfix...
Greetings from Germany!


Awesome post. I had the same thoughts myself. Would like to see this particular question addressed.


Thanks a lot. We discuss here in Germany about the same things as here; Auctionshouse, droprate of Items, Hotfix and many more. Many People here thing the same way we like to do, thats why i think that many people switch tu Torchlight 2 if it's released. Plz don't undestand me. Diablo 3 is a great Game and it make very fun until Inferno, because.... thats to difficult to explain in English, but in my first post i had it truncated.
Edited by Daishi#1619 on 6/11/2012 11:38 PM PDT
Hail blue
Posts: 21
Anyone else just get trolled by a blue post being bumped? -.-
We thought this was a great question, too. Unfortunately, our developers were unable to address it with as much detail and depth as they wanted before the AMAA ended. They thought it was a really relevant concern, though, so when I brought up the topic again to Wyatt Cheng today, he took some time to write up the following response:


I'll state up front that I do think there's a disparity between melee and ranged, and I would like to see that closed. I feel like if I talk a lot about thought processes and design philosophy and don't state this up front people will lose the forest for the trees and conclude we think everything is fine. So I'll say it again: melee vs. ranged disparity is not fine, changes are being made, and even if you disagree with the approach outlined below we can hopefully have the common ground that the current situation needs improvement.

It may not look like it on the surface, but a large number of the changes in 1.0.3 are actually targeted at closing the melee/ranged gap. Let me go through some of them.

Hardcore
I'm going to use Hardcore as a starting point. In Hardcore, there's actually a reasonable distribution of classes, and I don't think the melee vs. ranged disparity is as large. There are a lot of Hardcore players of every class in Inferno without a huge disparity. Why is this important? It's because a significant portion of the melee/ranged disparity is related to a ranged character's ability to progress even while dying. A melee player can throw themselves at a monster and die, doing almost no damage to an elite enemy. A ranged player can do a huge amount of damage to an elite enemy, die, respawn, and basically attrition the enemy down with repeated deaths. In the Hardcore environment where a single bad Mortar, Vortex, Jailer, or Reflects Damage will kill a glass cannon-ranged character, the disparity between ranged and melee is an order of magnitude less.

Repair Costs
One of the more controversial changes in 1.0.3 is the increased repair costs. The design intent of these increased repair costs is to make death more meaningful. One of the top arguments we see against the increased repair costs is "I'm already dying dozens of times to make any progress in Inferno. Don't you see this is going to make this impossible?" This concern is most often brought up by ranged glass cannons. Many melee players respond "increased repair costs seem fine" because they haven't been using death-zerging as a tactic. Melee can't easily death-zerg an enemy down, but ranged can. I don't think the answer is to make death-zerging more attractive for melee; I'd rather make death-zerging a less profitable strategy for ranged.

Enemy Health and Damage
We're also looking to adjust the damage and health of enemies in Inferno Acts II, III, and IV. This is another change that is primarily for melee with secondary benefits for ranged. A lot of ranged are building glass cannon with the mentality "well, I'll just try not to get hit at all." So, reducing incoming damage when they weren't taking any before isn't significant for them, whereas reducing incoming damage for the melee is a big deal. For the ranged classes, I'm hoping that the incoming damage reduction will make some survival stats more appealing to ranged classes. While before the damage was so large it just felt pointless to try and mitigate any of it at all, after the change hopefully ranged classes will think "well, if I just put on a modest amount of survivability, I don't get 1-shot, so that's worth it." There are some ranged players who are already doing this -- stacking survivability so they don’t have to endlessly kite -- and it just feels like the minimum amount of survivability to avoid the 1-shot is so large it's unattainable. That's one of the things 1.0.3 seeks to address.

Damage Reduction in Co-op
Another change which is targeted at improving life for melee is the reduction in co-op damage. Again, since many ranged players just build glass cannon and avoid damage completely, they didn't really care if incoming damage went up as other players entered the game, but the melee characters really noticed. It was very easy for your life-on-hit to have you at a steady equilibrium, but as soon as another player entered the game your life-on-hit was no longer covering the incoming damage and death became imminent.

Additional Changes
And finally, there are always minor polish adjustments designed to help melee -- such as the AI on some monsters (BEES!!!) being tweaked to run away less often, which again helps melee more than ranged. I actually spent some extra time the other day to make sure if a Sand Wasp runs away from you, and you start chasing the wasp, it doesn't turn and shoot 4 bees in your face (hopefully that makes 1.0.3). I'm also working with one of our gameplay engineers to make it so if you sidestep the Dark Berserker’s power hit (where he brings his giant mace down), he doesn’t turn to track you as he swings (though that change probably won't make 1.0.3). These kind of AI adjustments are things ranged players don’t even notice, but are huge for melee.

Another adjustment being made is increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar. Mortar was specifically designed to be an anti-range affix, but many ranged players would just stand even farther away, whereas melee would sometimes get caught in the cross-fire of two Mortars. Increasing the maximum range and the dead zone helps with both of these.


We'll be including this response in the AMAA transcript, as well (just in case some players don't find this thread).


Wanna know why range make glass cannons? Your loot drops SUCK. Its much easier to max out 1 stack then farm for years to get the "Proper" gear for your toon. How about making it so in Inferno you stop getting bull!@#$ rare drops. Stop forcing us to have to use the AH as our main source of gear. The loot drops are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo bad right now that it feels like you have a 1 in a million chance to get something remotely decent for your own toon. I would love to be able to farm Act 1 if it meant I would actually GET GEAR TO PROGRESS. But no that just don't work. I farmed act 1 (and many of my friends are STILL farming act 1) and are just getting sick of how horrible the loot is in this game.

I understand that gear shouldn't be dropping ALL OVER THE PLACE... but once you hit Inferno the gear should scale with the difficulty, the crap you got in Act 3/4 Hell SHOULD STOP DROPPING. I'm just sick of getting as low as level 50 rares in ALL THE ACTS in Inferno. Now your jacking up the price to repair which will only force people to quit the game entirely because they don't want to have to go back to act 1 to play the friggin game. Me and 2 friends have been loving the reduced dmg in Co-op, but we are pretty damn sick of the sad drops we get day in and day out. If repair costs go up, we will all be broke, or forced to go back to farming act 1 so we can deal with the higher acts with less deaths for that oh so crappy loot.
Ok... only here cos the server is down for maintenance, there is a saying that goes " dont argue with an idiot, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience" so i already feel immature being here but oh well

after reading some of these posts I have learned some things, most of you are 12 :)

as a "seasoned veteran" of video games (my first machine was a commodore 64 haha) let me give you all some advice
this instant gratification culture your all used to is disgraceful, the game has been out less then a month and your all ranting... really? i mean really?? My 60 level barb is getting messed up in act 2 and yeah im not real happy about it either... so.... i started another character SHOCK HORROR!! there is five to choose from

what will you all do if you finish a game in less then a month? Im sure your parents brought it for you and to be fair its only $70 here in Aus so no real biggie. Some of us waited 12 years for this game and even though its not perfect (far from it) who really cares... is this the worst thing happening in your life right now? "Oh no my imaginary character cant kill things" haha
give me a break

and look... now im on your level... awwwww
1 Goblin Hunter
0
Posts: 112
Good write up, but unfortunately I don't see a whole lot of original solutions here.

You've developed a game that has a one-dimensional difficulty ramp up. It's like your team just got lazy and decided that instead of making the game ramp up dynamically to involve a challenge in strategy, mechanics and survival, etc, that you just said "ZOMG just make the monsters do more DAMAGE!. That's how we'll make this game harder!"

Imagine what the WoW community would do if you didn't make any distinction between Normal and Heroic raiding? No new mechanics, no new phases, no new abilities! Better yet, instead of Normal and Heroic, you end up having Normal, Kinda Normal, Heroic, Super Heroic! Again, no intelligent or original way of ramping the difficult other than what a 12 year old can think of, "
Let's have them do more damage"

So, unfortunately, this is the reason why many are frustrated and why a simple repair cost ramp isn't going to fix or balance the game so that it's fun and exciting for most players.

I understand that the original games played like this, but that was out of limitation at the time, not because everyone just loved it. Imagine a scaled AI system where monsters got smarter through later difficulties. As long as your difficulty ramp is one-dimensional, players will be forced to play one dimensionally! That kind of build diversity and freedom of playstyle that your developers strive to achieve, cannot be obtained, because your foundation is off. Ranged want to go glass-cannon.. wonder why.. Melee being forced to tank...wonder why?

It's not because Inferno is too hard. We like the difficulty. It's because its too one-dimensional and forces us to play in a certain way that isn't' fun for everyone. If you nerf the content, then its not hard anymore and we get bored (think WoW here). The only option is to change that fundamental flaw in the game and tune the difficulty more dynamically.

To give some context, I play a Barbarian currently starting Act 4 Inferno with 3 of my friends, one being a wizard and another a DH. Both are glass cannons. I like tanking, but i don't want to be forced to tank all the time. I'd like to be able to use a 2 hander and different skills (maybe actually use my fury for once). My glass cannon friends are forced into long and boring kites, using spells and abilities they prefer not to use just to progress. It feels more like a chore than anything, like grinding a reputation in WoW, etc.

The problem is the reward. Once Inferno is complete, they no longer will have a reason to play the game. Why? Because the gameplay isn't fun. There's no rainbow at the end of Inferno.
Edited by Cirdecus#1205 on 6/12/2012 7:09 AM PDT
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