Diablo® III

The Unanswered Question

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90 Worgen Rogue
5755
Posts: 2,465
06/07/2012 05:27 PMPosted by FireKrystals
and Blizzard states it's an mmorpg,


They did what now?

[citation needed]

Everything you've posted here is suspect until you provide it.
[quote]I play a DH and I am in Nightmare mode to get to the point I die a lot I m not a super player and to me this feels like your punishing a class that the mechanics are different. If this goes through I will be forced to stop playing because all the enjoyment of this game will collapse and I will quiit, and yeah I know my voice don't count because if I quit you don't care..


1) They obviously care enough to try to make changes to the game that will make things more fair.
2) You aren't in Inferno. Nightmare doesn't even require the zerg tactics he was describing.
I hate to not agree with changes that are intended to close the gap between ranged and melee in Inferno, but I feel like it is a backwards approach to a legitimate problem.

I'll state up front that I do think there's a disparity between melee and ranged, and I would like to see that closed. I feel like if I talk a lot about thought processes and design philosophy and don't state this up front people will lose the forest for the trees and conclude we think everything is fine. So I'll say it again: melee vs. ranged disparity is not fine, changes are being made, and even if you disagree with the approach outlined below we can hopefully have the common ground that the current situation needs improvement.

I have to agree here, I am glad Blizz agrees there is a problem, but I do disagree with the approach. Maybe I’ve lost the forest for the trees (what does that mean anyway? I’ve never understand that comparison.), but I’ll try to explain. And by the way, this is coming from a Monk (attempting) to progress through Act II Inferno, and it seems the gap is only really noticeable (to the point of hair-pulling frustration) in Inferno.

Hardcore I'm going to use Hardcore as a starting point. In Hardcore, there's actually a reasonable distribution of classes, and I don't think the melee vs. ranged disparity is as large. There are a lot of Hardcore players of every class in Inferno without a huge disparity. Why is this important? It's because a significant portion of the melee/ranged disparity is related to a ranged character's ability to progress even while dying. A melee player can throw themselves at a monster and die, doing almost no damage to an elite enemy. A ranged player can do a huge amount of damage to an elite enemy, die, respawn, and basically attrition the enemy down with repeated deaths. In the Hardcore environment where a single bad Mortar, Vortex, Jailer, or Reflects Damage will kill a glass cannon-ranged character, the disparity between ranged and melee is an order of magnitude less.

I’m not sure I understand why Hardcore affects your approach to reducing the gap between ranged and melee. First, Blizz stated 4.9% of characters are Hardcore. Now how many of that 4.9% are in Inferno? That seems like a pretty small percentage. Percentages aside, you seem to really just attempt to minimize the argument by saying, “Well, there may be a gap between ranged and melee, but in Hardcore, if you die, you’re dead. So whoever has more armor/health/defensive mitigation has a better chance in Hardcore.” I find this to be unrelated to the heart of the matter.

Repair Costs One of the more controversial changes in 1.0.3 is the increased repair costs. The design intent of these increased repair costs is to make death more meaningful. One of the top arguments we see against the increased repair costs is "I'm already dying dozens of times to make any progress in Inferno. Don't you see this is going to make this impossible?" This concern is most often brought up by ranged glass cannons. Many melee players respond "increased repair costs seem fine" because they haven't been using death-zerging as a tactic. Melee can't easily death-zerg an enemy down, but ranged can. I don't think the answer is to make death-zerging more attractive for melee; I'd rather make death-zerging a less profitable strategy for ranged.


Another argument that doesn’t really solve the problem – it’s a band-aid on a deep gash. Actually, it’s a band-aid covered in lemon juice and salt on a deep gash. Upping the repair costs only makes it more annoying to die. Ranged classes who are graveyard zerging will either a) kite more or b) accept the costs of repair thanks to the reward of gear drops in Acts III and IV. This does nothing to solve the problem of melee having less damage and still getting one shotted just the same as ranged.

Enemy Health and Damage We're also looking to adjust the damage and health of enemies in Inferno Acts II, III, and IV. This is another change that is primarily for melee with secondary benefits for ranged. A lot of ranged are building glass cannon with the mentality "well, I'll just try not to get hit at all." So, reducing incoming damage when they weren't taking any before isn't significant for them, whereas reducing incoming damage for the melee is a big deal. For the ranged classes, I'm hoping that the incoming damage reduction will make some survival stats more appealing to ranged classes. While before the damage was so large it just felt pointless to try and mitigate any of it at all, after the change hopefully ranged classes will think "well, if I just put on a modest amount of survivability, I don't get 1-shot, so that's worth it." There are some ranged players who are already doing this -- stacking survivability so they don’t have to endlessly kite -- and it just feels like the minimum amount of survivability to avoid the 1-shot is so large it's unattainable. That's one of the things 1.0.3 seeks to address.


This does seem to approach the issue directly, though I have a feeling reducing incoming damage of all types as well as enemy health will lead to ranged just having an easier time being a glass cannon, and not getting to what seems to be your goal, which is to make ranged worry about defensive stats to some degree.

Damage Reduction in Co-op Another change which is targeted at improving life for melee is the reduction in co-op damage. Again, since many ranged players just build glass cannon and avoid damage completely, they didn't really care if incoming damage went up as other players entered the game, but the melee characters really noticed. It was very easy for your life-on-hit to have you at a steady equilibrium, but as soon as another player entered the game your life-on-hit was no longer covering the incoming damage and death became imminent.


This change is absolutely needed and is really the change that I think will make co-op quality of life much better for melee in Inferno. Thank you.

Again, while I am glad Blizzard is not satisfied with the current gap between melee and ranged, I hope it takes a serious look at numbers and stats. I hope the developers are playing both ranged and melee in Inferno to see for themselves. Right now, the only way for melee to progress through Inferno is to farm Act I for gear and gold, then buy better gear (from later content) to get to later content. It is putting the cart before the horse (and then making the cart pull the horse). It’s not fun. It doesn’t feel right. Especially when the design goal was to not take the AH into account. For those melee that completed Inferno without the AH, you are better than me, and most likely, have way more free time.

All in all, I’m not directly shouting: “Buff melee!!! Nerf ranged!!!” I’m just asking for something. If ranged gets frustrated about dying a lot in Inferno, at least, with perfect kiting, they can bring down elites. Melee... getting to a 30-second rez timer and not even doing noticeable damage to a single elite (not even considering that a) the elites heal back to full during the timer and b) they enrage long before they get close to death by melee)... that just makes me log off. And I’m also not crying about not beating the game 3 weeks after it was released. I want it to be challenging. I want it to take some time. What I don’t want, and want I don’t think is fun, is having to grind gold to buy gear. And it feels like right now, that’s the only answer. And that... the gold grind to go shopping for gear... not only does it feel like a “job” and not like a video game... it feels like a completely hollow achievement. I would much rather show off gear I fought hard for than gear I bought.
06/07/2012 05:18 PMPosted by OpsDude
Notice there is no such thing as directed heals, because the game was not designed to be played that way


*cough* Heal Other in Diablo I *Cough*
As far as repair costs, for delicate classes there are UNAVOIDABLE deaths. Jailer+desecrate and teleport+firechain are some examples. There is NOTHING player skill wise you can do to avoid these which is already super frustrating. But making that frustrating, unavoidable death cost 5x as much will just add more frustration.


This is a concern for everyone, not just ranged. There's nothing fun about situations where you have no way to avoid death no matter what, and the kind of bull!@#$ such as Teleport/Vortex Fire Chains is just something that needs to be toned down in general because it can wreck melee just as bad or worse than it can ranged.
06/07/2012 05:35 PMPosted by Iso
Notice there is no such thing as directed heals, because the game was not designed to be played that way


*cough* Heal Other in Diablo I *Cough*

no one ever used that, we had none wow potion system...
IF it wasn't meant to be an MMORPG, then why are they going to come out with Player Versus Player? also. And again if it wasn't meant to be played by more then 1 person, they would of left it OFFLINE with just an auction house online..........or give you option like 2. Playing with no internet, but like I said I'm not going to argue, because frankly it willn't lead anywhere. You have your opinion and I have mine. Decreasing ranged DPS while increasing Melee is not a good idea and will kill the game. IF they want to up melee dmaage (shrug) whatever, but anyone talking about nerfing our DPS needs to roll a caster class.....that's my opinion
Edited by FireKrystals#1381 on 6/7/2012 5:40 PM PDT
Posts: 246
[quote]You do understand that Diablo is a single player game for most players outside of item trading/buying/selling, right? The melee classes are not designed to be MMO tanks, even though they can fulfill a similar role in groups.[/quote
I am giving Blizzard the benefit of the doubt for making a game only able to play "Online" And they are ones that classified it has MMORPG.

Please, just uninstall and go back to wow. This is not an mmorpg, it is a dungeon crawler, with a 4 player per game limit. Notice there is no such thing as directed heals, because the game was not designed to be played that way. GTFO.


I left WOW forever ago hater, and Blizzard states it's an mmorpg, AND IT IS ONLY PLAYABLE with internet access. IF this was just meant to be a dungeon crawler, they would made offline version like in diablo 2 was.

Also, as I said if you have hundreds of millions to spend on gear, you probably aren't hurting. I gave my build and specs and I get 1 shotted by mobs. I paid over 300k for all of my resistance gear and armor gear.


I don't believe the defining characteristic of an mmorpg is the requirement of internet access. By that logic, Silent Hunter 5 is an mmorpg because Ubisoft requires an internet connection at all times to play, hell, any Ubisoft game would qualify. The qualifications for an mmorpg are that a "maasive" number of players interact at the same time in the same world. in no way would I define 4 as "massive". The fact that there are millions of other people playing the game by themselves at the same time as you when you have no contact or way to interact with them does not make it "massively multiplayer" nope, its a 4 player game.
06/07/2012 05:33 PMPosted by Firesnake
Did I actually read that correctly? Increasing the max range of mortar? It can already hit me when a mob is completely off of my screen (depending on the angle). In my opinion, that's a really, REALLY poor change. Other than that though, a very informative response. Appreciate the openness :).


If you've got the space, it's fairly easy to consistently avoid mortar - essentially you always want to be moving along an arc instead of a straight line... the real trick is timing your abilities so you don't eat a bunch before you start moving again.
06/07/2012 05:37 PMPosted by FireKrystals
IF it wasn't meant to be an MMORPG, then why are they going to come out with Player Versus Player? also. And again if it wasn't meant to be played by more then 1 person, they would of left it OFFLINE with just an auction house online..........or give you option like 2. Playing with no internet


They claimed online only for the AH and to stop scams dupes etc.

This game is not an MMO give us a citation form Blizzard where they state it is.
Posts: 1,031
06/07/2012 05:37 PMPosted by FireKrystals
IF it wasn't meant to be an MMORPG, then why are they going to come out with Player Versus Player? also. And again if it wasn't meant to be played by more then 1 person, they would of left it OFFLINE with just an auction house online..........or give you option like 2. Playing with no internet
I don't think you get Diablo. It's a single player RPG with a co-op mode so you can play with a couple buddies sometimes. Most people are playing solo however, and you cannot just leave the two melee classes relegated to the "meat shield" role when most of them don't have anyone in the game to shield because they're solo.
60 Dwarf Death Knight
5135
Posts: 178
I think the melee changes are much needed, if the ranged changes go through I will be calling for a refund. No questions asked. You will not fix the desparity, but ruin the ranged class.

QUIT NERFING CLASSES BEFORE THE GAME WORKS!

We are required to use the AH to progress, how about you make that work first? How about we don't get level 52 drops in inferno? Cant even get mats to craft with this crap happening.

There are 100 things that need to be addressed before nerfing ranged players. Melee players can play through inferno just fine when gear right. NO class can be gear right with the current crappy loot system setup in inferno.

Inferno is level 60 hero resitrcited, so should the loot. Fix this, and the game with be playable for all classes.
Well I look forward to seeing what happens. I play a wizard. Personally, my favorite skill is Spectral Blades which requires me to be up-close and personal with a lot of enemies. However at the current moment trying that against elites or heavy mobs just wipes me across the floor. A lot of times I am forced to kite around which personally isn't always that fun. I like to switch it up a bit.


Want to give me gold for better gear then? Cannot find anything better and cannot afford anything at all. The problem isn't survivability, it is the cost. I cannot purchase anything off the AH without spending a few mil per item to get anything better than I currently have. A few mil is WAY out of what I can practically farm in any short term. No replacement gear dropping tells me I have the best of what I should have right now.

So you tell me, how is this supposed to improve my gaming experience?
First of all, I wasn't just talking about gear. Gear is just one of the things adding survivability to your character, and the vitality stat is just one of the stats on gear that helps you survive.

That said, farming is a major part of Diablo. You've got weeks, maybe months before the patch in question. Start gearing yourself differently as you play in the meantime. And start playing around with new skills that increase your survivability so you've got an idea what you're gonna switch to after the patch. It doesn't have to all happen this afternoon.


No !@#$? Gear gives me things I need, vit, resistance, armor, etc. I don't have a way to get better gear, this means I am going to continue with my current gear which is actually pretty decent. Please go read the DH forums and see how impossible it is to gear for not getting 1-shot past act 1 inferno. This isn't a matter of "oh you suck, get better", it is a matter of "look my gear isn't the absolute top tier, but it is still up there, therefore it is going to cost me more".

This isn't a problem of not playing a ranged class as a ranged class, it is a problem with drops and not being able to afford more than what I currently have. I cannot just blow all my money on better gear when I also need it for my other characters. Sure I can play super conservatively, and I have no %^-*ing problem farming gear. I still farm gear for my multiple level 99s in D2 when the servers are down because it is way more fun than the endless torrent of !@#$ that I get farming act 1 of inferno.

To make a point, I am not in favour of the inferno nerfs (1.0.3), I am also not in favour of fluctuation in pricing due to "oh people are not taking advantage of it". The reason why we don't upgrade gems is because we can find better ones by the time we have gold to blow on upgrading the ones we have. We don't use the blacksmith because he funnels us utter %^-* until the last level and even then it is pretty average. The rest of us are blowing the remainder of out money on affording the next marginal upgrade on the AH because nothing drops that we can use.

To be quite frank I cannot wait for some aspects of this patch (1.0.3) because it means I will actually have the promise of an enjoyable game back where I can just spend hours hunting for loot. Right now I get zero loot and a bit of gold, most of which goes to repairs and some gem upgrades. In the mean time all I can do is grind on slowly and get by.
Posts: 146
Glad to read that melee gets some love.

Started inferno on my Barb and it is challenging,yes. However,i opted out of buying stuff from the Ah ,but instead i farm an area until i get some drops that are an upgrade. In the beginning i barely made it to the chapel, and now i killed the spider queen. Its somewhat satisfying.

There are some things that are very unsatisfying though. Yes, the elites are tough,but most elites have either plagued, desecrate, or the worst, molten. Even using all my defensive and offensive cool down and focus on one mob, its extremely hard to kill those.....mostly i have to flee from them. While plagued and desecrate can be avoided, molten damages me as soon as i am in attack range. And it does way too much damage.

I hope you guys take a look at those attributes of elites and adjust them for us melee ppl.
I think the melee changes are much needed, if the ranged changes go through I will be calling for a refund. No questions asked. You will not fix the desparity, but ruin the ranged class. QUIT NERFING CLASSES BEFORE THE GAME WORKS!We are required to use the AH to progress, how about you make that work first? How about we don't get level 52 drops in inferno? Cant even get mats to craft with this crap happening.There are 100 things that need to be addressed before nerfing ranged players. Melee players can play through inferno just fine when gear right. NO class can be gear right with the current crappy loot system setup in inferno.Inferno is level 60 hero resitrcited, so should the loot. Fix this, and the game with be playable for all classes.


Well statted. Exactly what I was trying to point out. Also OK I'll give you melee and 4 player and melee not being meatshield in diablo3, but nerfing ranged and upping melee is just straight up wrong and stupid. Fix melee to add more damage but I guarantee if they start nerfing RANGED class's, then the game will die.
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