Diablo® III

The Unanswered Question

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90 Worgen Rogue
5755
06/07/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Snuggies
Melee players can play through inferno just fine when gear right.


06/07/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Snuggies
NO class can be gear right with the current crappy loot system setup in inferno.


¿lolqué?
it all boils down to : SLOWER ITEM ACQUISITION needed.
06/07/2012 05:38 PMPosted by Ofer
If you've got the space, it's fairly easy to consistently avoid mortar - essentially you always want to be moving along an arc instead of a straight line... the real trick is timing your abilities so you don't eat a bunch before you start moving again.


A bunch? o.O. Might just be poor choice of words, but one mortar kills you in Act III Inferno. Dodging the mortars isn't a problem if the mobs that are being kited are in the top portion of the screen. However, if the mobs are on the bottom portion of the screen, it's both very hard to predict when mortars are coming (due to the lack of ability to see the casting animation), as well as what the max range is of the mortar because the skill bar may be covering a mob. Finally, having 3+ mobs all shooting mortar with it only being on around a 1-2 second cd makes it nearly impossible to have time to stop and cast.
14 Gnome Mage
0
So, what about dps disparity?

Yes, some of that is because melee stack more defensive stats currently (a trend that will still be true after 1.0.3 by the way) but that doesn't even come close to all of it. Equip comparable 900+ dps weapons on a melee and a ranged and the dps difference is absurd.

That doesn't make sense. Ranged have higher dps uptime, output a higher percentage of their dps potential while kiting.

This is one of the biggest contributions to the progression disparities, and the response borders on touching it: ranged can burst elites down, die and graveyard zerg, in large part because their dps is multiple times higher than melee, not because they die much faster during this strategy. A demon hunter doing 175k versus a monk doing 25k is simply no contest, even if the monk lives longer.

The announced changes are maybe in the right direction but so long as they're afraid to touch this disparity, this is laughable. "Melee are lagging behind? Increase repair bills!" Yeah, ok.
QUIT NERFING CLASSES BEFORE THE GAME WORKS!

We are required to use the AH to progress, how about you make that work first? How about we don't get level 52 drops in inferno? Cant even get mats to craft with this crap happening.
Maybe I'm getting my patch numbers mixed up, but I'm pretty sure the changes regarding melee/ranged balance are in the same patch that fixes the loot tables, the AH, and crafting. So it looks like they're doing just what you want.
06/06/2012 08:48 PMPosted by Adamant
Melee in group play is embarrassing


I have to admit, not only am I embarassed of my group-playability, but I'm considering the 1.03 patch the death knell for my gaming experience here solely on the basis of 3-6x increased repair costs.

Not only do I do less damage, but I need better gear in order to survive anywhere in inferno difficulty, which I can't obtain because gold farmers are ramping up the prices in the AH on anything useful AND I won't be able to make ANY money, since dying is what I do best in inferno.

I thought that was the point in the game... harder difficulty before better rewards, but in my case, it's going to be harder difficulty and as an added insult, my gear will cost tons more than those who can 1-shot everything. I figured that if anything else, stuff is just going to get better, but with the repair costs skyrocketing, there's no way. I have no problem with the difficulty of the game, but don't punish me so brutally for playing your difficult game. If it gets to the point where I have to farm hell difficulty before every inferno difficulty... just so I don't run out of gold, I won't be capable of seeing the fun in it.

Call my cynical, but no matter what the blue says about "looking into class ballance issues," I have a feeling that what they're intending on doing isn't going to be enough. PvP is going to be a joke. Barbarians have a limited number of CC abilities (all on cooldown) and demon hunters have unlimited escapes and pretty much unlimited damage, by comparison.

Edit:
Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% total damage(basically, they have no resists, no armor, no dodge, and nearly neglected their vitality). Takes 50k(100k) damage per second from a mob, dies instantly.
Class Y has 50k health, mitigates 90% total damage, and steals 1k health per second(basically, they have 70% armor and 70% resists and a large amount of vitality. It isn't close to top of the line by any stretch of the imagination) Takes 10k(100k) damage per second from a mob, dies in 6 seconds.

- Lets say Blizzard nerfs mob damage from 100k down to 66k(a 33% nerf).

Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% damage. Takes 33k(66k) damage damage per second, dies instantly.
Class Y has 50k health and mitigates 90% damage, and steals 1k health per second. Takes 6.6k(66k) damage per second, dies in 9 seconds.

- Lets say Blizzard nerfs mob damage from 100k down to 50k(effectively halving mob damage).

Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% damage. Takes 25k(50k) damage damage per second, dies in 2 seconds.
Class Y has 50k health and mitigates 90% damage, and steals 1k health per second. Takes 5k(50k) damage per second, dies in 13 seconds.

- Lets say Blizzard nerfs mob damage from 100k down to 10k(a 90% nerf)

Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% damage. Takes 5k(10k) damage damage per second, dies in 6 seconds.
Class Y has 50k health and mitigates 90% damage, and steals 1k health per second. Takes 1k(10k) damage per second, cannot die due to the 1k life steal.

- A hypothetical 33% nerf in damage resulted in no change for class X, and 3 more seconds of time until death for class Y.

- A hypothetical 50% nerf in damage resulted in 2 more seconds of time until death for class X, and 7 more seconds until death for class Y.

- A hypothetical 90% nerf in damage resulted in 6 more second of time until death for class X(the same time til death as class Y before any damage nerf), but class Y is now invincible.

- Someone with 30k health and 50% mitigation means they have 0 resists, no +armor, and nearly neglected Vitality. Someone with 90% mitigation has 70% resists and 70% armor. 70% resists and 70% armor isn't even close to top of the line stats.

tl;dr: Survivability is more appealing because you don't need heaps of it to see a difference.


Yea I know that's true. I guess I'm weighing my limited gameplay vs. people who have been playing consistantly since the game came out. That's probably the main issue here. No doubt barbarians are capable of much more.
Edited by Stinkyfinger#1801 on 6/7/2012 6:37 PM PDT
Why are people so mad about repair costs? ^^ Its proper for a game such as this to have a meaningful death penalty. Inferno is going to get easier...so die less ;)

As a barb player can't say I look forward to spending extra gold... but it will be for the best ^^
Edited by NetherWitch#1172 on 6/7/2012 5:52 PM PDT
So, what about dps disparity?

Yes, some of that is because melee stack more defensive stats currently (a trend that will still be true after 1.0.3 by the way) but that doesn't even come close to all of it. Equip comparable 900+ dps weapons on a melee and a ranged and the dps difference is absurd.

That doesn't make sense. Ranged have higher dps uptime, output a higher percentage of their dps potential while kiting.

This is one of the biggest contributions to the progression disparities, and the response borders on touching it: ranged can burst elites down, die and graveyard zerg, in large part because their dps is multiple times higher than melee, not because they die much faster during this strategy. A demon hunter doing 175k versus a monk doing 25k is simply no contest, even if the monk lives longer.

The announced changes are maybe in the right direction but so long as they're afraid to touch this disparity, this is laughable. "Melee are lagging behind? Increase repair bills!" Yeah, ok.


This isn't actually 175k, they are just maxing crit damage and posting while using sharpshooter. SS doesn't actually increase you dps per second, it increases the chance of you doing crits per second. This means statistically your dps will go up until the 100% crit chance happens. For DH not rolling with SS, (such as myself) you normally see a range between 20-40k dps with using your average gear. Those that can spend tens of millions on the max on the AH, then they can go up to 100k, but the actual likelihood of playing with such a person is extremely slim.

Edit: to clarify, most of the time you will see 16-35k base damage before factoring in sharpshooter.
Edited by DirkGently#1944 on 6/7/2012 5:52 PM PDT
90 Dwarf Paladin
11670
Lylirra, while that wonderful wall of text did enlighten us on further reasoning behind many of the, in my humble opinion, improvements to this game, it didn't really address the fact that ranged just plain do more damage. Agreed, many ranged, perhaps most, have opted for this glass cannon build because of the kiting ability and raw avoidance skills they can possess to kill mobs that melee classes must select the "face-meet-meatgrinder" approach, most often with the meat grinder coming out on top.

To my knowledge, one of the most exquisitely geared barbarians, Pharmosh, has just recently attained a dps of 75k. Whereas a Demon Hunter, who's name escapes me, is over 300k. That is more than four times more powerful, and we're the ones who have to rush face first into the cacophony of death.

Now, I'm not asking that we do as much damage as a ranged. I don't believe we should, since we as melee have inherently more damage reduction, 30% I believe. But there shouldn't be a schism of a multiplier of four between the two.
Edited by Olorin#1826 on 6/7/2012 5:54 PM PDT
They want to penalize range for making glass cannon builds and "death-zerging" through elites, but don't you think if there were other viable builds even available to progress through inferno the majority would already be doing it...

Even with a full defense build on a wiz you will still be killed in 3-4 hits regardless of gear and take 3-4 times as long to take down an elite mob. For some risking "enrage timer".

Raising repair costs just seems like over punishment for the players still trying to progress through the punishing difficulty that is inferno.. I know i sometimes got spawn camped at a rez point before i learned to get through inferno most of the time those hard combo elites just have to be kited to a corner of bypassed in gerenal if possible.
06/07/2012 04:21 PMPosted by Lylirra
Another adjustment being made is increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar. Mortar was specifically designed to be an anti-range affix, but many ranged players would just stand even farther away, whereas melee would sometimes get caught in the cross-fire of two Mortars. Increasing the maximum range and the dead zone helps with both of these.
I love the general intent here, but can we please not have this. Right now, if a monster is below you with mortar it can shoot you from off-screen, which makes it extremely difficult to react in time. In effect, certain types of monsters force you to maneouver them to be to the top-left of you to fight them effectively, so you can actually see their attack animations instead of having to react to projectiles. This is extremely frustrating, since if the monsters are in sight it's generally fine, and this interaction would be exacerbated by any further increases in range.

Alternatively, you could provide us with a wider zoom option, so that I no longer have to panic every time I'm moving down, just because of the particular camera perspective choice.
Enemy Health and Damage
We're also looking to adjust the damage and health of enemies in Inferno Acts II, III, and IV. This is another change that is primarily for melee with secondary benefits for ranged. A lot of ranged are building glass cannon with the mentality "well, I'll just try not to get hit at all." So, reducing incoming damage when they weren't taking any before isn't significant for them, whereas reducing incoming damage for the melee is a big deal. For the ranged classes, I'm hoping that the incoming damage reduction will make some survival stats more appealing to ranged classes. While before the damage was so large it just felt pointless to try and mitigate any of it at all, after the change hopefully ranged classes will think "well, if I just put on a modest amount of survivability, I don't get 1-shot, so that's worth it." There are some ranged players who are already doing this -- stacking survivability so they don’t have to endlessly kite -- and it just feels like the minimum amount of survivability to avoid the 1-shot is so large it's unattainable. That's one of the things 1.0.3 seeks to address.


That really makes zero sense. Why would survival be more appealing if its less necessary?

If the player is already using a glass-cannon build with the idea of not getting hit (makes sense, totally, just as my monk is built to be constantly healing, regardless of what else is happening, he MUST always be healing), reducing incoming damage is not going to make them suddenly WANT to get hit, it just makes it so if they do get it, it means even less, further encouraging glass-cannon builds. You think I'd make my monk heal LESS because the damage is less? No way! It just makes the healing I have even more effective.

If I can get my monk to a point where I can heal SO much that I fear no enemy, I've completed my build ideal. I'm sure anyone would plays a glass-cannon wizard or demon hunter feels the same way.


Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% total damage(basically, they have no resists, no armor, no dodge, and nearly neglected their vitality). Takes 50k(100k) damage per second from a mob, dies instantly.
Class Y has 50k health, mitigates 90% total damage, and steals 1k health per second(basically, they have 70% armor and 70% resists and a large amount of vitality. It isn't close to top of the line by any stretch of the imagination) Takes 10k(100k) damage per second from a mob, dies in 6 seconds.

- Lets say Blizzard nerfs mob damage from 100k down to 66k(a 33% nerf).

Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% damage. Takes 33k(66k) damage damage per second, dies instantly.
Class Y has 50k health and mitigates 90% damage, and steals 1k health per second. Takes 6.6k(66k) damage per second, dies in 9 seconds.

- Lets say Blizzard nerfs mob damage from 100k down to 50k(effectively halving mob damage).

Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% damage. Takes 25k(50k) damage damage per second, dies in 2 seconds.
Class Y has 50k health and mitigates 90% damage, and steals 1k health per second. Takes 5k(50k) damage per second, dies in 13 seconds.

- Lets say Blizzard nerfs mob damage from 100k down to 10k(a 90% nerf)

Class X has 30k health and mitigates 50% damage. Takes 5k(10k) damage damage per second, dies in 6 seconds.
Class Y has 50k health and mitigates 90% damage, and steals 1k health per second. Takes 1k(10k) damage per second, cannot die due to the 1k life steal.

- A hypothetical 33% nerf in damage resulted in no change for class X, and 3 more seconds of time until death for class Y.

- A hypothetical 50% nerf in damage resulted in 2 more seconds of time until death for class X, and 7 more seconds until death for class Y.

- A hypothetical 90% nerf in damage resulted in 6 more second of time until death for class X(the same time til death as class Y before any damage nerf), but class Y is now invincible.

- Someone with 30k health and 50% mitigation means they have 0 resists, no +armor, and nearly neglected Vitality. Someone with 90% mitigation has 70% resists and 70% armor. 70% resists and 70% armor isn't even close to top of the line stats.

tl;dr: Survivability is more appealing because you don't need heaps of it to see a difference.
Edited by Ruin#1202 on 6/7/2012 6:07 PM PDT
Here's the thing with all the changes proposed in the first blue post - they benefit melee but they also all benefit ranged. I'm glad you guys have at least finally acknowledge the huge difference in power between melee and ranged, but my initial thoughts on this is that it's not going to be enough to make it feel like it's worth it playing melee. That's really where we're at right now - melee are just so bad that you don't even want to play the game if you decided you want to play a monk or barbarian instead of any of the ranged classes. The things I'm seeing that you guys want to adjust are quality of life changes for sure, but it's almost as beneficial to ranged as it is to melee. So what does that leave us?
Another adjustment being made is increasing both the maximum range and the dead zone of Mortar. Mortar was specifically designed to be an anti-range affix, but many ranged players would just stand even farther away, whereas melee would sometimes get caught in the cross-fire of two Mortars. Increasing the maximum range and the dead zone helps with both of these.
I love the general intent here, but can we please not have this. Right now, if a monster is below you with mortar it can shoot you from off-screen, which makes it extremely difficult to react in time. In effect, certain types of monsters force you to maneouver them to be to the top-left of you to fight them effectively, so you can actually see their attack animations instead of having to react to projectiles. This is extremely frustrating, since if the monsters are in sight it's generally fine, and this interaction would be exacerbated by any further increases in range.

Alternatively, you could provide us with a wider zoom option, so that I no longer have to panic every time I'm moving down, just because of the particular camera perspective choice.


Qft. Seriously, the lack of vision in the bottom portion of the screen is an enormous problem that needs to be addressed. I don't understand how increasing the max range of mortar could ever be a good thing.
Edited by Firesnake#1807 on 6/7/2012 6:01 PM PDT
This is why Wyatt should do all of the talking and Jay should take a backseat for a while. Especially since it feels like everything that Jay promised pre-launch were false and/or greatly exaggerated. I dropped my Barb to play a DH just so I could feel functional in this game. However, I will most definitely go back to Barb if they make melee feel like less of a chore.
Can't vouch for monks, because i don't play 1, but to deal with barbarian's damage being an utter disgrace compared to range, is buffing our fury spending abilities... currently they all sucks, and no one even uses them because there is no point.
90 Worgen Rogue
5755
06/07/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Cattywampus
I have to admit, not only am I embarassed of my group-playability, but I'm considering the 1.03 patch the death knell for my gaming experience here solely on the basis of 3-6x increased repair costs.


In group play, I've found that I have the best runs by using my barb abilities to hit-n-run slow and stun mobs to keep them off of my ranged companion heroes (and I tend to have the most fun playing in a group that way, also, but your mileage may vary.) I gear and spec to stay alive, get globes dropping everywhere and to keep mobs moving slowly rather than for ultimate dps output.

The biggest problem that I've found in group play is that I'm sometimes stuck with 3 other melee classes. Unless we can coordinate our stuns and snares, it tends to be a trainwreck. I think this could be partially resolved by having the matchmaking system create groups, when possible, with mixed classes so they can use their skills to benefit and compliment the group rather than having the same classes with essentially the same skills overlapping or just flat stacking on top simultaneously and being wasted.
14 Gnome Mage
0
06/07/2012 05:52 PMPosted by Adamant
Now, I'm not asking that we do as much damage as a ranged. I don't believe we should, since we as melee have inherently more damage reduction, 30% I believe. But there shouldn't be a schism of a multiplier of four between the two.
Cannot disagree more. Melee are given a damage reduction bonus to balance incoming damage. The assumption is that melee will take more unavoidable damage than ranged and should have to kite to avoid damage less frequently. If that turns out not to be the case, adjust this damage reduction so that they're taking comparable damage.

It is bad design to trade off a wide disparity in damage potential for a wide disparity in incoming damage. Melee should have comparable damage output with ranged, despite the 30% damage reduction--which is merely one tool to help them achieve that comparable damage output by allowing them to, you know, actually take melee swings regularly.

If anything, melee should have higher character sheet dps since they will usually have lower dps uptime, and output a smaller portion of their dps potential while kiting.
06/07/2012 06:00 PMPosted by Daciana
I have to admit, not only am I embarassed of my group-playability, but I'm considering the 1.03 patch the death knell for my gaming experience here solely on the basis of 3-6x increased repair costs.


In group play, I've found that I have the best runs by using my barb abilities to hit-n-run slow and stun mobs to keep them off of my ranged companion heroes (and I tend to have the most fun playing in a group that way, also, but your mileage may vary.) I gear and spec to stay alive, get globes dropping everywhere and to keep mobs moving slowly rather than for ultimate dps output.

The biggest problem that I've found in group play is that I'm sometimes stuck with 3 other melee classes. Unless we can coordinate our stuns and snares, it tends to be a trainwreck. I think this could be partially resolved by having the matchmaking system create groups, when possible, with mixed classes so they can use their skills to benefit and compliment the group rather than having the same classes with essentially the same skills overlapping or just flat stacking on top simultaneously and being wasted.


^this exactly. OP, you say that it is embarrassing to play in group play.. it seems that your team needs to start thinking more like a team. If they ridicule you, try staying behind *them* and see how quick they go down. That should help put it in perspective.
Chur thanks for a reply on that I Was wondering about that myself
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