Diablo® III

Azmodan the retard and Kariya the coolmaster

Obviously the hero is going to bash evils face in, but the way Azmodan is protrayed compared to the way he acts makes no sense.

Azmodan is supposed to be the greatest battlefield commander in hell, but his battle plan for every occasion seems to be:

1. Get a huge army.
2. Apear as a fiery vision to his enemies tell them what he plans at every turn so they can easily counter it.


Azmodan is the Lord of Sin, and he seems to embody all seven Deadly Sins somehow in his personality; one of the more obvious ones is how fat he is due to being Lord of Gluttony, plus his extended involvement with his mistresses, being the Lord of Lust. Pride is one of the Sins. He probably honestly believes he's too awesome to be defeated, regardless of whether he tells you his intentions, which is of course a result of his Pride.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
Obviously the hero is going to bash evils face in, but the way Azmodan is protrayed compared to the way he acts makes no sense.

Azmodan is supposed to be the greatest battlefield commander in hell, but his battle plan for every occasion seems to be:

1. Get a huge army.
2. Apear as a fiery vision to his enemies tell them what he plans at every turn so they can easily counter it.


Azmodan is the Lord of Sin, and he seems to embody all seven Deadly Sins somehow in his personality; one of the more obvious ones is how fat he is due to being Lord of Gluttony, plus his extended involvement with his mistresses, being the Lord of Lust. Pride is one of the Sins. He probably honestly believes he's too awesome to be defeated, regardless of whether he tells you his intentions, which is of course a result of his Pride.


His girth could be a sign of Sloth as well. And when you make your way into the crater he ceases gloating and starts to threaten, so that's Wrath.

He wants to become the Prime Evil, so we also have Greed and Envy.
Reply Quote
Damn melyria
You're not necassarily wrong but my god you love making excuses for awful writing
Edited by Shingram#1112 on 6/1/2012 1:31 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warrior
10500
Posts: 33
Yeah, this bad "Villain appears magically to tell you his plans or make fun of you" theme that goes on through the whole game is the result of none other than bad writing. No matter how much you want to explain why it makes sense in the lore or whatever, the thing is, this game is the blizzard game with hands down the worst writing.

  • First Maghda did it "while you were X I did Y wahahaha" it seemed odd to me at first but whatever she's just some pawn right?
    This didn't happen with Belial since he was undercover or something (which was very obvious from the moment you speak to the Emperor)
  • Then comes Azmodan and takes it to a whole new level. After everything you do, he appears and just tells you how insignificant what you just did is and how you're still going to fail. Seriously this reminds me of saturday morning cartoons where villains lose every week yet still think they're gonna beat the main character, it just makes so little sense, it actually feels like Azmodan is actually a very very scared demon that is just clinging to the last thing he thinks might work, intimidation, in order to have a chance of surviving this absurdly powerful mortal. This is seriously the only perspective Azmodan makes sense to me, tactician? yeah right.
  • And last we have Diablo/Prime Evil. It gets toned down a bit here but it's still very bad... (and don't even get me started on it's weird speech mannerisms: "Hey,Tyrael, look! It's your old lieutenant!" ) On my nightmare run, when I was about to close the hell rifts Diablo would say "you will never succeed!" or something like that, right after I already did it once, and a few seconds before I do it this time. What is going on? are the evils so blinded by arrogance they can't see what is happening? and why is Diablo even talking to me when he should be busy finishing off the angels? why does he bother telling me I found a hell rift?
  • I would love Melyria to explain all these things to me because I want to love this game so much but it just won't let me. Any chances Blizz will apologize for this awful sequel to an awesome franchise and just delete or change all of these sloppy pieces of the dialogue? I don't think so, but I can dream right?
    Reply Quote
    How exactly is Diablo talking to us all the time? Does he have like a radio or something? Isnt he supposed to be busy somewhere else?

    Oh Chris Metzen...
    Reply Quote
    90 Worgen Warrior
    10500
    Posts: 33
    05/30/2012 12:20 PMPosted by KewlImp
    I think the thing with Azmodan is simply the angels are not exactly expert tacticans themselves. I mean Diablo basicly knocked on the door and they flooded Heaven. If your enemy is playing checkers why play chess, if that makes sense. He didn't need to be complicated, all he had to do is throw forces at them until they crumbled. Also, Azmodan was the ascept of pride meaning why should he hide his plans, you can't stop him anyways at least thats the way he sees it.


    So you're saying Angels have been waging war against demons for thousands of years and yet they're somehow worse tacticians than Azmodan? Really? worse at tactics than the guy who tells you everything he's going to do? How is that even possible?
    Also, about not needing to hide plans because of pride well that also makes little sense because if it was because of that he always reveals his plans how could he ever become a master tactician? he's always been full of pride so he couldn't have ever been a little more cunning and would probably keep underestimating his opponents which is never a good thing in warfare.
    Reply Quote
    Posts: 28
    I can only imagine that they thought the relationship with their villains wasn't personal enough, so they made it a point to give them all some interactions with the character before the showdown, so that you could better anticipate the inevitable showdowns. But the way they chose to do it, and the fact that they chose to do it the exact same way each and every time... Ugh.

    I thought that finding the journals on the corpses of all those "messenger of _______" wasn't all that bad. They had the exact same effect as a big glowing vision of Azmodan or Diablo, but weren't mallet over the head villain monologue terrible. It was MUCH more satisfying to read about the villain's plot in a message to another villain than it was to have the villain say, "Oh yeah, well next time I'm going to make you fight THIS!"

    I think structurally, they should have reversed Belial and Asmodan. It made no sense to me that we knew where the sneaky, deceptive demon was, but the tactician/warlord was "in hiding." And especially since lies and betrayal play such a pivotal role in Act 3, it would have been nice to have focused on that aspect leading up to the betrayal.
    Reply Quote
    90 Night Elf Rogue
    11905
    Posts: 13,320
    I think structurally, they should have reversed Belial and Asmodan. It made no sense to me that we knew where the sneaky, deceptive demon was, but the tactician/warlord was "in hiding." And especially since lies and betrayal play such a pivotal role in Act 3, it would have been nice to have focused on that aspect leading up to the betrayal.


    It makes more sense if you consider Belial was trying to take over Sanctuary, through Caldeum, using guile and power control, rather than conquest, and he's been working that plan slowly over the course of years.

    Meanwhile, Azmodan was content to lead his own forces... until he saw a prize that would make him the Prime Evil. Basically, if you never captured Belial, Azmodan wouldn't have had reason to invade at the time he did.
    Reply Quote
    Bosses always talking to you is the worst thing in DIII history. Diablo should never talk to you before the battle. Someone in the town could tell you about Cain instead of Magda. And Azmodan could shut the !@#$ up sometimes. But destroying the game atmosphere with bad dialogs doesn´t make him bad commander. If you have an assured victory it´s not bad to tell your plan to desmoralize the enemy.
    Reply Quote
    05/31/2012 04:45 PMPosted by Aussir
    Azmodan is the Lord of Sin, and he seems to embody all seven Deadly Sins somehow in his personality; one of the more obvious ones is how fat he is due to being Lord of Gluttony, plus his extended involvement with his mistresses, being the Lord of Lust. Pride is one of the Sins. He probably honestly believes he's too awesome to be defeated, regardless of whether he tells you his intentions, which is of course a result of his Pride.


    That Azmodan embodies all 7 deadly sins in his personality/character is only subjective. A fatal mistake is to assume a "Lord of XXX" exihibits XXX as his character. But if you look at what the game tells you (lore books), it's clear that the 7 prime/lesser evils don't actually have their title as characters, but rather they are adept at inflicting it upon others. In fact, Cain clearly states that Diablo is immune to fear, and background evidence shows that Mephisto induces hate, while he himself manipulates all sides to his advantage.

    As for Azmodan being a great commander, one has to look at the battle as a span of days (as stated by Leah's journal), instead of one sitting. Aside from the last parts (sin hearts and killing Az), each part of the act takes place over several days of fighting, yet Azmodan shows no signs of improvisation. If we don't look at the times elapsed while the party travels from act2 to 3, it's clear right away that Tyrael has taken charge (if even the merchants know that an angel is in charge, a "brilliant" commander would surely have the recon to know it), but his plan certainly did not change.

    His plan of starving the soldiers might be sound, and he might have an endless supply of forces, but he still fails at being a tactician and a strategist because:

    If Bastion Keep is the most important strategic point of the invasion, conventional wisdom would be to launch an all out assault with the strongest forces, to take it at once. (Think Bliztkreig) Doing so would preserve as much fresh troop as he would need to attack the rest of the world and heaven.

    Ghom's attack on the keep's basement has been going on for days/weeks, the proof can be obtained from Ghom's journal. Why did they not have a concerted attack from both the inside and the outside? (It's important to note that while you light the signal fire, you are bombarded by catapults, thus implying that the war machines are already active)

    His entire strategy consists of waves after waves of soldiers, with which the ultimate prize is being the prime evil and can easily topple heaven. Why would he not account for an intervention by heaven, what makes him think the Angiris council would play by the rule if everything is at stake? It ultimate leads to his downfall by an outside factor (Tyrael and the hero). What if instead of the hero, it is an ("endless") angel army led by Imperius? What chance does he have, using the same strategy, against a new front?

    As you can see, all this boils down to his inability to grasp that time is the most important thing in a battle. Employing a debilitating siege when he clearly has the capacity to end it quickly (via the stronger minions like phasebeasts) just goes to show that he's incompetent. (Remember, the keep is already on it's last leg when the hero arrives, implying that had Az use a stronger/full force since the beginning, it would have been over before the hero gets there)

    At best, he is a passable strategist (planning and maneuvering); but he is a horrible tactician (commanding the troops at hand in a battle).
    Reply Quote
    Anyway,anyone knows anything about this Kariya?Who is she? She look like mage or a witch.
    Reply Quote
    06/12/2012 03:21 AMPosted by Freedy1322
    Anyway,anyone knows anything about this Kariya?Who is she? She look like mage or a witch.


    She was supposed to be the third artisan and be able to enchant your items wow style. But for some reason the devs took her out of the game. She will probably have a comeback in the expantion though.
    Reply Quote
    06/11/2012 09:56 PMPosted by Scirocco
    Ghom's attack on the keep's basement has been going on for days/weeks, the proof can be obtained from Ghom's journal.


    Nothing about Ghom's Log indicates this. Nothing says that those prisoners weren't captured on the battlefield and dragged into the Arreat crater.

    As you can see, all this boils down to his inability to grasp that time is the most important thing in a battle. Employing a debilitating siege when he clearly has the capacity to end it quickly (via the stronger minions like phasebeasts) just goes to show that he's incompetent. (Remember, the keep is already on it's last leg when the hero arrives, implying that had Az use a stronger/full force since the beginning, it would have been over before the hero gets there).


    Azmodan is playing a longer game than just conquering Bastion's Keep. Diablo needed the strongest demons of Hell to invade the High Heavens so that he could reach the top of the Silver Spire unimpeded, and so would've Azmodan if he had become the Prime Evil instead. That is why he was trying to conserve his best troops. It might even have been the case that all the demons we encounter in Act IV were serving Azmodan during Act III, but he didn't even bother to bring them into the crater.

    As I have said elsewhere, I believe that both Belial and Azmodan's downfall can be attributed to 2 things: fatally underestimating the nephalem heroes, and getting a little sloppy in excitement of having the black soulstone almost within their grasp. But I think Melyria's explanation does the job well enough.
    Reply Quote
    06/12/2012 06:00 AMPosted by Placebo
    Anyway,anyone knows anything about this Kariya?Who is she? She look like mage or a witch.


    She was supposed to be the third artisan and be able to enchant your items wow style. But for some reason the devs took her out of the game. She will probably have a comeback in the expantion though.


    I've never played WoW. Please explain further the nature of the enchantments she would offer.
    Reply Quote
    90 Night Elf Rogue
    11905
    Posts: 13,320
    06/12/2012 06:03 AMPosted by Wurg
    Nothing about Ghom's Log indicates this. Nothing says that those prisoners weren't captured on the battlefield and dragged into the Arreat crater.


    No, however the mayor comments before you even light the signal fires that a foul smell has been coming up from the larder for quite some time now.

    Basically, the demons were inside the keep when you got there, before Act 3 even starts.
    Reply Quote
    So I have 0 problem with Azmodan being the greatest tactician in Hell. As Melyria pointed out he was sneaky, attacking from above and below, etc. However I think his character execution in game is not befitting of his supposed greatness.

    Someone else mentioned that it's probably his sin 'Pride' that made him gloat to the PC. Problem is, it is done almost too many times and it gives too much away. It seemed like he was a victim of his own sin, not a master of it.

    All the bosses' gloat of "Haha, I don't need goon X, I still have goon Y. He's been in place Z for a while!" (exaggerated, compounded from all of the taunts) could probably be more cryptic, less direct - released a tortured man to send the message to the PC for instance - and definitely less often. When I listen to all the bosses and to some extent Leah, it seems like all they do is feed you direct info. No guesswork, red herring, no other plot elements used but a hammer to your head and that makes for worse storytelling than it could have been.

    A bit OT, but Perhaps they should saturate the atmosphere a bit with other characters that ties directly to the main storyline. E.g that cowardly Tristram mayor, Haedrig and the crown, anyone else besides Tyrael and Adria as a town quest giver, etc.
    Reply Quote
    90 Night Elf Rogue
    11905
    Posts: 13,320
    06/12/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Mookie
    Someone else mentioned that it's probably his sin 'Pride' that made him gloat to the PC. Problem is, it is done almost too many times and it gives too much away. It seemed like he was a victim of his own sin, not a master of it.


    The other Evils had this issue too.

    Baal, Lord of Destruction, wasted time during his invasion of Arreat, ravaging everything in his path. The Book of Cain even says that if he didn't, he'd have made it to the top of Arreat long, long before the heroes.

    Duriel, Lord of Pain, will actually put himself through torture if he can't torture anyone else.

    Andariel, Lady of Anguish, will actively be drawn to places of mental torture and sorrow, like a moth to the flame. She even turned on Diablo, one who she's very close with, just because she knew it'd cause him mental strife to see somebody he trusts betray him.

    Mephisto cannot stop weaving manipulations and sowing hate, even amongst his own brothers.

    Belial goes so far as to lie to himself and will build lies within lies within lies, to the point where even he can't escape the web he's made.

    Diablo is said to outright keep people alive to indulge in their fears, instead of killing them.

    All the Evils are slaves to their own natures. Its to the point where the Evils undo themselves in every encounter with Heaven, as Tyrael points out. Even the Angels of the Angiris Council exibit signs of this behavior.
    Reply Quote
    06/12/2012 06:03 AMPosted by Wurg
    Ghom's attack on the keep's basement has been going on for days/weeks, the proof can be obtained from Ghom's journal.


    Nothing about Ghom's Log indicates this. Nothing says that those prisoners weren't captured on the battlefield and dragged into the Arreat crater.

    As you can see, all this boils down to his inability to grasp that time is the most important thing in a battle. Employing a debilitating siege when he clearly has the capacity to end it quickly (via the stronger minions like phasebeasts) just goes to show that he's incompetent. (Remember, the keep is already on it's last leg when the hero arrives, implying that had Az use a stronger/full force since the beginning, it would have been over before the hero gets there).


    Azmodan is playing a longer game than just conquering Bastion's Keep. Diablo needed the strongest demons of Hell to invade the High Heavens so that he could reach the top of the Silver Spire unimpeded, and so would've Azmodan if he had become the Prime Evil instead. That is why he was trying to conserve his best troops. It might even have been the case that all the demons we encounter in Act IV were serving Azmodan during Act III, but he didn't even bother to bring them into the crater.


    True, Azmodan never intends on just conquering Bastions Keep and calling it a day. In the act 3 cinematics he states that he'll scour the world for the black soulstone by crushing everything with his army. Still, if he is a sound strategist, he would have known that BK is of extreme strategic value (it's the bottleneck that's keeping the demons from pouring out Mount Arreat and crushing the other kingdoms) and take it ASAP. Basically he's sending his weakest troops first and fight a war of attrition against a force less than 1500; when a single Siegebreaker can fight off a hundred men, stick a hundred phasebeasts, succubi, or heralds in there and the Keep would have fallen in a day (the first day of battle is often the most important day of a siege, that's why you send your strongest, freshest troops in there).

    As to how he's reserving his troops for the war against heaven, that is also moot, since as the Prime Evil he would have command over all other demons, his forces would be more than sufficient to fight heaven with or without his own "elite troops". A sound strategist would also know this (as Tyrael also understands).

    06/12/2012 08:52 AMPosted by Melyria
    Someone else mentioned that it's probably his sin 'Pride' that made him gloat to the PC. Problem is, it is done almost too many times and it gives too much away. It seemed like he was a victim of his own sin, not a master of it.


    The other Evils had this issue too.

    All the Evils are slaves to their own natures. Its to the point where the Evils undo themselves in every encounter with Heaven, as Tyrael points out. Even the Angels of the Angiris Council exibit signs of this behavior.


    Well I concede that I didn't read the book of cain; supposing the demons and angels are slaves of their own natures, it would make absolutely no sense that Azmodan can achieve anything on the battlefield. Every single one of the seven deadly sins is enough to ruin an army (simple reason: they cloud judgement, which is 100% of war).

    Now if he would invoke said sins onto the defenders of BK, that would be a lot different. Say, pride and wrath to trick the defenders to leave the keep in a suicidal charge, or greed to bribe a gate opened.

    A much easier explanation for why Azmondan is the greatest commander even with his complete lack of foresight, among other things, is that his accolade is entirely relative - when everybody is zerg rushing with fallen ones, bringing a catapult makes you a genius.

    In the end, it was a terrible choice on the author's part to brand Azmodan as The General. Belial would do far better as deception is far more effective than...gluttony.
    Reply Quote
    100 Human Paladin
    18880
    Posts: 2,956
    Diablo did the same thing:

    Diablo: You'll never destroy my hellrift!

    Diablo: Ha! There's one more hellrift!

    Diablo: Ha! I didn't need those hellrifts!
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)

    Reported!

    [Close]