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Generally agree with all your points (not going to nitpick every sentence), I'll even credit that he intended to lure the stone to the keep. Though the only thing is (as the definition and difference of which have suddenly become important on the fourth page thanks to nitpicking and desperation) that the luring is a strategy, not a tactics. He's a great field commander, is what we're arguing.Again, my view to this argument, and certainly most people that share it, is that Azmodan lost: what would have prevented him from losing? What attempts could he have made to out maneuver the hero? (Don't say anything about the hero being unbeatable; Maghda did it with the third sword piece) The opponent of this viewpoint needs to justify his action in the game, with DIRECT EVIDENCE, not conjectures, ambiguities, or circumstantial evidence. Nobody gives a damn about what the write/Azmodan "might be thinking", if it's not written down.It boils down to "What could have prevent Azmodan from losing?" versus "How Azmodan is a brilliant tactician?". It doesn't get simpler than that.I admit though, it's easy to criticize, as ultimately Azmodan has the result of failure, so even the most outrageous theory could hold some water as long as it MIGHT prevent his failure. While the other side struggles to find hard evidence to support their view.
I agree, what Azmo does is essentally the equivilaint of the allies canceling the D-day landing because "the Russians will get to Berlin eventually". Of course this being a vidio game we can't actualaly have Azmodan win. However, showing him to be a great battle commander, executing almost flawlessly, and then haveing the hero win dispite that would help to improve the narrative on so many levels. The main problem with Azmodan, as with Belial, is that everthing they do well is done off screen, all we the players get to see is Azmodan allowing his plans to implode and Belial blantanly being the kid emporer. The narrative breaks one of the most important tennants of good storytelling. Show don't tell.
Here is an example of how Blizzard could have shown Azmo to be a great battle commander while still keeping the gameplay intact: (as I said before) Instead of doing nothing during his best opportunity to claim the soulstone. Azmo would send his forces into the keep after the stone while the single biggest obstacle to his plans (The hero) is on the ramparts, raising the defenses of a keep that has had its lower levels occupied for days.
And how it could have been implemented in game to improve the storytelling.
this can still work gameplay wise. When the hero arrives back in the keep have it full of demons that the hero has to fight through and then have a boss battle against one of Azmos Lieutenants, greed would work well here, right before he overwhelms the armory and gets his hands on the soulstone. Allowing us to further see Azmodan as a good tactician as well as making the hero even more awesome.
Edited by TheBentOne#1206 on 6/15/2012 8:29 AM PDT
So, Azmodan lost because plot mandated that he lost and he looks like a fool because the story was told improperly? That sounds like a good conclusion to come to.
Personally, the plot I'd like have seen for Act III goes as follows:
-Heroes light the fires and raise the catapults
-Heroes charge the hellgate, Azmodan throws all his Sin Lords at the Heroes like they're going out of style
-The final Sin Lord is Ghom, who is oddly enough encountered not in the crater but in Bastion Keep's Larder
-On his death, Ghom reveals that Azmodan's has undermined the walls of Bastions Keep and this was all to distract the Heroes while Azmodan lead the final assault
-Heroes desperately run across the ruins of Bastions Keep, meeting and slaying the Siegebreaker while doing so
-Heroes stop Azmodan right before he gets his hands on the black soulstone
Edited by Wurg#1796 on 6/15/2012 11:06 AM PDT
Yeah, even though everybody hates Maghda, at least she did decoy the hero, attack NT, kill Cain, and kidnap the Stranger.
And that's the end of Evil doing anything successful (from the hero's perspective) until act 4.
I would prefer act III to progress like:
-Hero arrives to fight off a boss gauntlet ending with Siegebreaker
-Hero fights in the field (to break a catapult or w/e), gets asked/summoned back by Tyrael to hold off a sneak attack from the basement
-Demons break through the gate while you're away from the field, the fighting continues, everything looks grim until reinforcement arrives (let's just say from Westmarch) and retake the gate.
-Hero does a daring charge towards the Gate in an attempt to stop the flow of Demon reinforcement, while Tyrael & co stays behind to hold off an attack led by Azmodan.
-Hero encounters Ghom at the gate, then Cydaea at the heart, stopping the flow of demon, then rushes back to the Keep
-The mortal force loses, the Hero arrives(kills everything along the way) just in time to prevent Azmodan killing Tyrael and claiming the BSS, then kills Az.
-Act ends with Adria's betrayal and those other things.
It incorporates my theories on proper tactics; hitting the gate with strong forces, two pronged attacks that end in breaking the gate, the hero is able to save the day or hold off until help arrives, Azmodan leading an attack that defeats Tyrael, and again the hero saves the day. Yet it doesn't change the overall story at all.
Edited by Scirocco#1452 on 6/15/2012 2:54 PM PDT
Nothing? That's my point. The guy put up a barrier and it got smashed down. And lets face it, he wouldn't have put up that barrier if just anyone could knock it down.
Are you saying he should've run? Maybe. But again, he's Pride incarnate. And again, if he ran to Hell then what? He keeps running and escapes? And we lose the game? It made sense that he stood there and waited for you, being who he is.
He doesn't consider you a threat. He doesn't care that you killed Belial because he even SAYs Belial is much weaker than him. Azmodan didn't know he was facing down basically a god.
It boils down to "What could have prevent Azmodan from losing?" versus "How Azmodan is a brilliant tactician?". It doesn't get simpler than that.
Again, -nothing-. Azmodan had damn well won when you got there. If we had been a couple hours later, he'd have won. No question. No ifs. No ands. No buts. It is painfully clear it is Tyrael and you that pull the 300 soldiers left back from that brink.
I would prefer act III to progress like:
So you want to throw away the actual smart move of destroying the food stores?
And you want Azmodan to get overwhelmed with reinforcements?
And most of all you want to somehow pull victory from the jaws of defeat. If Azmodan literally has to take the soulstone, what stopped him? What makes him any less of a moron or a shmuck?
The fact that he gets that close and FAILS makes him look more like a jobber than a simple guy who's smart but lets his pride get ahold of him because he's fighting ants. And then one ant happens to be able shoot needles from its head that kill you instantly.
Edited by Melyria#1246 on 6/16/2012 7:49 AM PDT
You are still saying that Azmodan's Invincible Door™ was a good idea in the game? heh really Melyria, you should learn when to quit. Without that poor Tyrael would have been benched for another act just like the whole of act 2. Not a tactic, it was just a stupid idea.
Also, i get that he is pride, but you cannot emphasize only that side of him. If pride is such an issue with him no one would have called him a tactical genius and a great commander. And he wouldn't have been known as Lord of Sin but Lord of Pride, if only one sin was prevalent.
Also you should see how they did the sins in Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood. Now that was genius.
assuming the player character is no threat: definitely something to do against someone who has killed a Lord of Hell, and someone who has the black soulstone.
Relying on a magical door: real tactical prowess once again against someone who has killed a Lord of Hell.
Don't know about Tyrael: because he definitely did not send his visions to taunt you and Tyrael.
Tries to spoil the food supply: and then immediately telling you about it so you can stop him. Definitely smart.
Telling Leah where he is going to attack: definitely a good idea to lure a weapon that can trap your soul to you.
melyria, I would LOVE to have you as my lawyer. Maybe it's because I read your posts Phoenix Wright style. :L
And I'm lovin this good argument(rare to see such arguments that don't end/is consisted of cheap insults)
would like to see more discussion but I've got nothin to contribute :p
and ya'll probably tired now, right?
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