Diablo® III

IAS and Arcane Orb

Hi I'm in Inferno Act III and use MM, Arcane Orb, etc.

I understand the effects on kiting of IAS, in that it lets you get Arcane Orbs out faster.

However, I wanna ask about the effects on DPS.

I've always thought that IAS lets you have a higher Arcane Orb DPS as well because as per the words Damage Per Second, more Arcane Orbs out per second = more damage per second.

However, I've come to realize that after your initial blast of 3-5 Arcane Orbs, which do indeed come out faster, your Arcane Power regeneration is a static number that doesn't become faster from IAS. This means that the amount of time you have to wait until your next blast of 3-5 Arcane Orbs is the same as the other guy with a 0.9 attack speed weapon and 0 IAS, to quote an extreme example. In fact, that other guy with a heavy-hitting weapon will hurt more with his next blast of 3-5 Arcane Orbs, even if he gets them out slower than you.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the benefits of being able to get Arcane Orbs out quicker, but I was just wondering about the overall effects on DPS. Any thoughts on this, anyone?

Edit: Does this also not apply to channeled spells like Disintegrate as well? Kiting effects aside, while you do get to dump your AP faster with a higher IAS, you are waiting the same amount of time for AP to regenerate for your next dump.

Further edit: The 'Damage' number in the character screen seems highly misleading, as it is Damage Per Second, as its tooltip reveals. However, given the same amount of AP, the damage that you receive from spells that use AP is actually the same isn't it (albeit that a faster IAS allows you to deal that damage faster than a slower IAS)?

This is to say, the only spells which truly benefit from IAS, kiting effects aside, are signature spells that don't use AP. This is because given the same weapon damage, a higher IAS will result in an indefinitely sustained increase in number of hits, and higher damage over the same period of time.
Edited by ShoujoA#1400 on 6/3/2012 6:08 AM PDT
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ASPD is over rated.
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this is the exact reason why people are arguing if attack speed is necessary.. Also, attack speed will increase your Damage per second but when kiting, you run then hit back and you'll loose some time running (unless mobs are stationary which is more unlikely)..
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with a wand and with a familiar out,even if you run out of AP, you still shoot 120% weapon damage attacks equating to more DPS as opposed to someone using a 2-hander running around waiting for his AP to replenish. (this is with a no signature spell build)

The wand +oh with IAS, AP on crit, and high crit chance would also be refilling his AP faster in the process because there are two sources of damage that can crit (wand damage and familiar damage) which can proc the AP on crit.

2-handers, on the other hand, benefit from greater spell damage equating to a greater damage per AP ratio. If you run out of AP, you may make use of signature spells in the meantime which would deal damage similar to that of wand+oh arcane orb hits.

To each his own. Whatever works for you. both are viable.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7450
If you're using MM then faster arcane orb = using more MM in between them. Its ture that the number of arcane orbs you fire is restricted by your AP regen, but you can make up for and get ahead of a slower cast speed with the number of MM you cast.
Also if you get prodigy you can actually fill up your AP faster as well using MM which will lead to more arcane orb casts.
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2-handers, on the other hand, benefit from greater spell damage equating to a greater damage per AP ratio. If you run out of AP, you may make use of signature spells in the meantime which would deal damage similar to that of wand+oh arcane orb hits.


Right. So the point is a higher IAS gives more advantage to signature spells/naked weapon, while heavier-hitting 2H gives more advantage to AP spells.

So, again kiting effects aside, is the trick to find the sweet spot between your ratio of usage between signature and AP spells?

For example, if I used purely signature spells, or mainly signature spells, I should get more IAS to do more hits.

But if I used purely AP spells, I should go for less IAS but stack up on Intelligence, weapon damage etc. so that each of my AP counts more.

And then depending on the ratio of how much I use each, I should stack the according stat.

This balancing trick seems very math-heavy, and I lack the math capabilities heh, but is this roughly the correct way to see things though. Any input from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
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If you're using MM then faster arcane orb = using more MM in between them. Its ture that the number of arcane orbs you fire is restricted by your AP regen, but you can make up for and get ahead of a slower cast speed with the number of MM you cast.


This is true too. I was just thinking, as I face the hordes of mobs that are in the Siegebreaker runs though, that while I do get more MM in between bursts of Arcane Orbs, each MM is only hitting one monster at a time. I do wonder if I won't be better served having heavier-hitting Arcane Orbs that do damage to entire groups at once.
Edited by ShoujoA#1400 on 6/3/2012 6:24 AM PDT
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there is an optimal attack speed, and this depends entirely on your build. Able to dump arcane power while kiting, without starving or capping often? Perfect. Don't get any more.
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I think the choice would greatly depend on your play style.

If you prefer to teleport or outrun mobs to a safe distance and throw all your spells in one go, greater ASPD would benefit you more.

If you prefer to meticulously calculate, time, and space your spell casts, greater damage per cast would be more beneficial for you.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
7450
06/03/2012 06:23 AMPosted by ShoujoA
If you're using MM then faster arcane orb = using more MM in between them. Its ture that the number of arcane orbs you fire is restricted by your AP regen, but you can make up for and get ahead of a slower cast speed with the number of MM you cast.


This is true too. I was just thinking, as I face the hordes of mobs that are in the Siegebreaker runs though, that while I do get more MM in between bursts of Arcane Orbs, each MM is only hitting one monster at a time. I do wonder if I won't be better served having heavier-hitting Arcane Orbs that do damage to entire groups at once.


There are signature spells that do pretty decent AoE damage as well, if you're worried about that could always just change to one. Even the piercing MM is decent for hitting a couple of targets that are chasing you, personally I find 1h/oh to be much more adaptable to different situations.
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Alright. Thanks all for your input.
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If you want to use Channeld spells (Desintegrate, Ray of Frost) on Inferno, you need a lot of IAS to make the first Tick of the spell hit hard enough to be worthwhile.
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That is why you need to have a signature spell in your build. When you empty your AP instantly you can shoot signature spells like Magic Missile or Piercing Orb and do quite a bit of extra damage from shooting them so fast. I noticed I am usually able to get a couple of extra shots even while kiting before having to move again because the attack is so fast.... Works great for me.
Also, terrain and spells that slow enemies down offer you a tremendous advantage when you can shoot spells fast.
Edited by Leopard2#1431 on 6/3/2012 7:43 AM PDT
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How much Arcane Orbs you can fire in a period of time is limited by your arcane power.
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06/03/2012 06:37 AMPosted by Serane
If you want to use Channeld spells (Desintegrate, Ray of Frost) on Inferno, you need a lot of IAS to make the first Tick of the spell hit hard enough to be worthwhile.


I think you have it backwards.

If you use channeled spells, you benefit from slower weapons, because your AP will last longer.

I use a 0,9 speed weapon and disintegrate, and i run very slowly out of AP, and can fire for a long time. DPS is the same for slow and fast weapons, but slow weapons use AP much slower, so they are at a big advantage.
This means I don't need a signature spell, and I use hydra instead.

Though my tactic in inferno lately has been getting insane ammounts of dps and nuking everything before it touches me. It's more fun than kiting for hours at least.
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90 Worgen Hunter
7595
It's not an MMO boss encounter where you're trying to do maximal DPS every single second. I mean you kind of are, sort of? But not really. Each mob in a pack that dies makes things easier, and you want things to start dying as quickly as possible. Further, you want to pack as much damage as you can into the limited windows of time when you're allowed to DPS in inferno. IAS allows you to do that, and if you're doing things correctly you're directing all that damage onto the lowest-health target available to you.
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06/03/2012 05:27 PMPosted by Peregrina
It's not an MMO boss encounter where you're trying to do maximal DPS every single second. I mean you kind of are, sort of? But not really. Each mob in a pack that dies makes things easier, and you want things to start dying as quickly as possible. Further, you want to pack as much damage as you can into the limited windows of time when you're allowed to DPS in inferno. IAS allows you to do that, and if you're doing things correctly you're directing all that damage onto the lowest-health target available to you.


???

To the op:

I'm assuming you're farming siegebreaker using MM and arcane orb?

Yes the DPS number increased by IAS is pretty misleading for anyone who uses spells like arcane orb. Especially for arcane orb users, your base damage along with anything other than attack speed affects how efficient you are spending your AP. Attack speed only reduces the casting animation but overall reduces your spell efficiency compared to crit.

A two handed mace with 0.9 speed or a staff with 1 speed would be what you want when you go something like MM/AO because you get the most damage out of every orb.

However you still want your attack speed to be at a comfortable value close to 1.5+ because you do not want your animation to be "stuck" casting something for too long when you actually have to dodge something.
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I've tried to point this out to a buddy who has pestered me offering cruddy blue rings with attack speed mods on them. Attack speed "fluff" on your damage rating should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's an advantage for frontloading damage and getting in extra casts while kiting, or whenever, so yes, you want speed boosts when they are available, but it should not come at the cost of true damage-boosting stats like intelligence
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90 Worgen Hunter
7595
edit: I will put it in different words:

High attack speed allows you to burst down specific mobs in a small amount of time. You only have small amounts of time when you don't have to move in inferno and the most dangerous time when you're fighting a pack is when it has all its members. Therefore, bursting down specific targets in a short amount of time is very valuable.
Edited by Paprika#1805 on 6/3/2012 6:39 PM PDT
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