Diablo® III

Best Hungering Arrow Rune?

Im struggling between three runes:

- Puncturing Arrow (50% pierce chance)
- Cinder Arrow (ignite target)
- Devouring Arrow (70% damage after pierce)

My questions are:
1) Which one is best suited for fightning act bosses?
2) Which one is best suited for hatred generation?
3) About devouring arrow:
a) How does it work? because I dont understand it properly.
Is +70% damage buff stacking?
b) If damage stacks, if I use another skill does it resets the stacked bonus? And how about death of character?

Sorry for my english, Im foreigner.
Thanks for advices :)
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Posts: 97
1. devouring
2. devouring
3. If you fire one shot and it pierces, the next target it hits after piercing (oftentimes the same target) the damage is increased by 70% , and if it pierces again, another 70%.
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Yeah Devouring is the best, hands down.
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It also looks the coolest.
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Devouring is better IMO, think about it this way:

Say you shoot a mob for 1000dmg:

Devouring gives you a 12.25% (.35^2)*100 chance to do a total of 5590 dmg.
1000 (from the initial hit)
+ 1700 (70% increased dmg from the first pass through)
+ 2890 (1700*1.7 from a second pass through).

Puncturing gives you a 12.5% (.5^3)*100 chance to do a total of 4000 dmg.
1000 (from the initial hit)
+ 1000 (from the first pass through)
+ 1000 (from the second pass through)
+ 1000 (from the third pass through).
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Im struggling between three runes:

- Puncturing Arrow (50% pierce chance)
- Cinder Arrow (ignite target)
- Devouring Arrow (70% damage after pierce)


Devouring at all times.

Basically, you are summing an infinite series.

Puncturing Arrow gives you the sequence 1 + .5 + .25 + .125.... That sequence very obviously sums to 2, meaning that the Puncturing Arrow rune on average does 200% base damage.

The math on Devouring Arrow is a bit more complicated, but its basically 1 + (.35*1.7) + (.35*1.7)^2 + (.35*1.7)^3.... That's a bit harder to calculate but it ends up summing to something like 2.45 meaning that Devouring Arrow on average does 245% base damage.

Cinder Arrow does considerably less damage. I'm not sure if it does 35% base damage per second for three seconds, or only a total of +35% base damage over all 3 seconds, but either way this is at most 205% base damage. It's just not that attractive, and basically doesn't provide an upgrade from Puncturing Arrow.

The only other rune I'd consider is shatter shot, but then only against crowds and even then you probably have better crowd control options. Hungering arrow once it is available should be your main hatred generator and single target damage option. It's so good, that even if you critted 100% of the time, you'd still probably prefer it to the Spray of Teeth rune. In fact, to make Spray of Teeth competitive, it would probably need to do about twice as much damage on a crit.
Edited by Celebrim#1585 on 6/1/2012 9:55 AM PDT
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Posts: 44
For anyone who is more math hungry on the explanation of how these series are put together and calculated....

Basic hungering arrow
    It does 115% damage (so 1.15). it does this 100% of the time, so we multiply it by 1.00 to get 1.15.
    It has a 35% (.35) chance of piercing and doing the same again, so add to it .35*1.15.
    If it pierces the first time, it again has a .35 chance to pierce again. But it must first pierce the first time so we have to multiply by .35 (the first pierce) and then again by .35 (the second pierce). So add to the sum .35*.35*1.15.
    Similarly for the third time: .35*.35*.35*1.15.

This can be illustrated mathematically by a summation: The sum from 0 to infinity of (1.15 * .35^n). Think of n as how many times the arrow pierces.
Type this into wolframalpha to get the final value of the average damage: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=summation+from+0+to+infinity+of+1.15*.35^n

The final value is: 1.76923 or 177% weapon damage.

Puncturing arrow
Now that we've figured out devouring arrow, puncturing is easy. instead of a .35 chance, we replace it with a .5 chance.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=summation+from+0+to+infinity+of+1.15*.5^n

Final value is: 2.3 or 230% damage

Devouring arrow
This ones just a bit more complicated because the .7 increase doesn't happen on the first hit. So the first hit is still 1.15.
After that, we just need to make a simple adjustment for the extra .7 damage by adding to our summation 1.7n (since for each pierce you add the .7). The sum then becomes 1.15 + (summation from 1 to infinity of (1.15 * 1.7n * .35^n)). notice our summation goes from 1 to infinity instead of 0. This is because we're pulling out the "0" hit since it's special and doesnt get the extra 70% damage.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1.15+%2B+%28summation+from+1+to+infinity+of+%281.15+*+1.7n+*+.35^n%29%29

Final value is 2.76953 or 277% damage

Cinder arrow
I believe the fire damage doesn't stack or doesn't apply on subsequent hits after a pierce...assuming this is true makes this calculation easy. Whatever the normal hungering arrow does plus .35.

Final value: 2.11923 or 212% damage.

So...use devouring.
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what about spray of teeth?

i like the aoe, also im not 100% sure, but think the AOE even hits the mob in single targeting.

DMG is depending of crit % and DMG but i think most Dh got well stats in crit area.
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what about shatter shot?
when it pierces you get 3 arrows of 135% instead of one arrow with 229%
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Posts: 324
Your math on Devouring Arrow is a bit off me thinks.

This is a sum to infinity of a simple geometric series where:

a = 115
r = (1.7 * 0.35) = 0.595

The sum formula going to infinity is:

a / (1 - r) = 115 / (1 - 0.595) = 115 / 0.405
= 283.95

So my final number for Devouring Arrow is 283.95%, which is a bit higher than your 277%

I was going to do the math for Scatter Shot but I'm not sure if the 3 extra arrows on pierce have a chance to pierce again. I assumed "no" and therefore stamp it at 235.75% if my assumption is correct.
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Your math on Devouring Arrow is a bit off me thinks.
This is a sum to infinity of a simple geometric series where:
a = 115
r = (1.7 * 0.35) = 0.595
The sum formula going to infinity is:
a / (1 - r) = 115 / (1 - 0.595) = 115 / 0.405
= 283.95
So my final number for Devouring Arrow is 283.95%, which is a bit higher than your 277%
I was going to do the math for Scatter Shot but I'm not sure if the 3 extra arrows on pierce have a chance to pierce again. I assumed "no" and therefore stamp it at 235.75% if my assumption is correct.

lol... so wit shatter shot - 3 arrows, each of 115% do 235% damage total??? not 345%???
and yes... one of those arows can pierce again.

ALSO... calculating for infinity is ridiculous... the real chance that hungering arrow will pierce more that 2 times is really low and should not be taken into consideration...
here is how i see things:

assume damage=1000

1st pierce:
devouring: total damage is 1150+1150*1,7= 3105
shattershot: total damage is 1150+3*1150=4600

2nd pierce (for shatter shot i consider only one arrow pierces)
devouring: total damage is 3105+1955*1,7= 6420
shatter shot: total damage = 4600 + 3*1150=8050

and the chance for shatter shot to pierce a second time is high (you get 3 arrows with 35% chance to pierce instead of just one)

after the second pierce, the chance to get a 3rd pierce is really low (realistically). so it's pointless.
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Posts: 324

ALSO... calculating for infinity is ridiculous... the real chance that hungering arrow will pierce more that 2 times is really low and should not be taken into consideration...
here is how i see things:


While I agree it's low for it to pierce more than 2 times... the aim of the geometric formula to infinity in this sense for hungering arrow is to calculate the average of each shot.

You do need to calculate it this way and not your "I think it's this way cuz ridiculous LOL" way.

Sorry :)
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Posts: 324

lol... so wit shatter shot - 3 arrows, each of 115% do 235% damage total??? not 345%???
and yes... one of those arows can pierce again.


It's 115% damage 65% of the time and 345% damage 35% of the time for a total of 235.7% on average.

Is that really so hard to comprehend?
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Posts: 324
The reason why I think scatter shot extra arrows don't have the same chance to pierce as the first arrow is because 3 arrows each with a 35% chance to pierce means that on average they will just keep on going (3 * 0.35 = 1.05... it's higher than 1).

The other thing to take into consideration is when the extra arrows pop up, do they always hit a target if one is in range or do they just kind of all go off into random directions. I don't know enough about how the extra arrows behave to say what % of the time they find another target.

I assume either the % of the extra arrows to pierce is low or not all extra arrows have a 100% to hit a target assuming something on the screen is still alive.

If it really is 35% for each extra arrow to pierce and they always find a target on screen then Scatter Shot would be overpowered.
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lol... seems either i'm stupid.. or you are..

IF 1 PIERCE OCCURS, then the total damage is:
x*1,15 + 3*x*1,15 for shatter shot = x*4,6
x*1,15+1,7*x*1,15 for devouring = x*3,1

IF AFTER 1 PIERCE, THE SECOND ONE OCCURS, then the total damage is:
initial damage + 2nd pierce damage:
shatter: x*4,6+3*x*1,15=x*8,05
devouring: x*3,1 + x*1,15*1,7*1,7=x*6,42

how the f*ck do you get average???
THE CHANCE FOR BOTH TO PIERCE the first time IS THE SAME 0.35

for the second pierce you get one arrow with .35 chance with devouring and 3 arrows with .35 for shatter shot. which second pierce will more likely be triggered????
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Posts: 324
Read my post directly above yours, you may have missed it.

The average is the geometric sequence. It's a way of saying "Hungering Arrow" does "this" much damage on each shot given this rune.
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The three extra arrows from Scatter Shot do not seek targets, meaning they can miss. I also have never seen it pierce targets after scattering. Go try it on a single target, if the arrows don't turn around and hit it again then my assumptions are correct.
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Posts: 582
Best HA rune is Evasive Fire.
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Posts: 324
06/05/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Saphireking
The three extra arrows from Scatter Shot do not seek targets, meaning they can miss. I also have never seen it pierce targets after scattering. Go try it on a single target, if the arrows don't turn around and hit it again then my assumptions are correct.


This is how I understood it as well.

Does the extra pierce from Devouring Arrow seek the original target if there is only 1 target on the screen? Anyone know?

Either way if Scatter Shot doesn't pierce additional times, then Devouring looks to be the way to go.
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