Diablo® III

{SPOILER} Sorry, but the Story is BAD

@ Shingram, go away. People have given you the EXACT same reason addressing every issue. Tell me how its dumb for the personification of justice itself to get fed up when he's being punished for upholding justice?

Dumb poster is dumb.


How ironic you're posting dumb poster is dumb. People can give incorrect reasons but I can also come in and dismiss those incorrect reasons like I just did. Try this if you want to actually be intelligent...debate the points I brought up..wait that'd mean being anything other than what you accused me of being
I want to address only one thing here. No one knew what would happen if an angel transubstaite into a human form in the world of Diablo. Its never mentioned in lore that I've read or within the games. So If he doesn't know what effects of ripping his wings off will have, how is that bad writing?

Being the Arcangel of Justice, if he sat back and did nothing, he would be betraying his essence and the core of who he is. There was nothing mentioned that he was the smartest of the angels or the strongest, only what he enbodied. His rash decsion had true aftereffects. It may have been reviving the dead as the Holy energies fled his body with a strong cause and effect.


This has been answered. Why rip off the wings at all? It's a dumb move indicative of dumb lazy poor writing. Shouldn't have happenned. Your implication is that anything he could have ever conceivably done besides ripping off his wings would = sitting back. Thats just false. WHy are the evils allowed back every game but Tyreal can't be allowed back. inconsistent poor lazy writing.

Good some of you could enjoy it but bad writing is still bad
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06/03/2012 03:29 PMPosted by Shingram
WHy are the evils allowed back every game but Tyreal can't be allowed back. inconsistent poor lazy writing.


The problem with Order, typically, is that they are bound by laws and are usually seen as a stagnant and/or restricted force. Chaos, on the other hand, is not restricted by those laws and will act freely.

This is a common trope of fantasy.
@ Shingram, go away. People have given you the EXACT same reason addressing every issue. Tell me how its dumb for the personification of justice itself to get fed up when he's being punished for upholding justice?

Dumb poster is dumb.


How ironic you're posting dumb poster is dumb. People can give incorrect reasons but I can also come in and dismiss those incorrect reasons like I just did. Try this if you want to actually be intelligent...debate the points I brought up..wait that'd mean being anything other than what you accused me of being


How about you answer the question I asked you in a way that makes sense other then "HERP DERP ITS BAD!"?
This has been answered. Why rip off the wings at all? It's a dumb move indicative of dumb lazy poor writing. Shouldn't have happenned. Your implication is that anything he could have ever conceivably done besides ripping off his wings would = sitting back. Thats just false. WHy are the evils allowed back every game but Tyreal can't be allowed back. inconsistent poor lazy writing.

Good some of you could enjoy it but bad writing is still bad


He is still an angel. When he acted Diablo 2, he was not told by his leader not to act. IF it was there, I must have missed it. However, Tyrael says it the best,"You cannot judge me; I am Justice itself! We were meant for more than this, to protect the innocent! But if our precious laws bind you all to inaction, then I will no longer stand as your brother! "

That sums up the reasons for erason tearing off his wings. You can't be the embodiment of justice and just say, "you know what, he says I can't do anything, I tried." I tjust doesn't work that way. You don't build character with something being a primary trait and at the first problem, he abandons it. Characters that are well developed don't have major changes of heart out of no where. If they had decided that Tyrael stayed in heaven, I feel the game would needed to completely rewritten.
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Why didn't he just leave Heaven AND remain an archangel? Then he might have actually been able to help the heroes in some way instead of just tagging along as dead weight.
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06/03/2012 04:58 PMPosted by Chrono
Why didn't he just leave Heaven AND remain an archangel? Then he might have actually been able to help the heroes in some way instead of just tagging along as dead weight.


Because do you want Imperius to come down with an army of angels and take him into custody for breaking the pact?
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Why wouldn't Imperius do that anyway? A human Tyrael is still Tyrael. And other than "uh...because..." is there any sensible reason for the angels not to consider the neutrality pact broken? There really needed to be more explanation given for many of the characters' actions in the game.
Thats the thing though Chrono. The angels are supposed to be acting on a similiar Rules of Engagment it seems. I have not read the Book oF Cain, so someone can contradict me here, but it seems that if they are not attacked, they can not attack back. So as an Angel, he can't come down and fight Diablo but he can get heroes to do it, like in Diablo 2. By removing his wings, he is not longer an angel and therefore can act with more free will.
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06/03/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Chrono
Why wouldn't Imperius do that anyway?


Because an angel broke the laws of Heaven. Being moral, Tyrael is no longer part of that society, just as much as Izual was.

06/03/2012 05:05 PMPosted by Chrono
And other than "uh...because..." is there any sensible reason for the angels not to consider the neutrality pact broken?


Because the Angels didn't see the war in Arreat. They haven't been watching Sanctuary. They're more than content leaving the little half-breed mongels on their own. They don't know the Hells broke the pact.

Tyrael explicitly says this in one of his dialogues.
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I say this from the perspective of a Grad student in Literature.


Speaking as someone working on an MFA in Writing, saying you're a Lit Grad Student is code for "I can't write for !@#$ and have terrible ideas about what makes for good writing." Diablo 3's not particularly impressive, but, hearing lit students attack it makes me assume I'm missing something and it's much better than I realized.
Edited by Ramenth#1258 on 6/3/2012 5:14 PM PDT
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Because an angel broke the laws of Heaven. Being moral, Tyrael is no longer part of that society, just as much as Izual was.


That's never even explained or hinted at. It's an explanation that's been cobbled together to cover up Blizzard's lack of detail.

Because the Angels didn't see the war in Arreat.


Wow, what? They had NO idea that Diablo wreaked all kinds of havoc in D1 and that he freed his brothers in D2 resulting in all three Prime Evils rampaging across Sanctuary? That's ridiculous.
Remember that most of the angels don't like the human race, so they have no reason to watch them any longer. Ignorance is Bliss and there isn't an arcangel of watchfulness. Sometimes its better to leave gaps like that. It leaves people's imaginations open to create wild ideas and to keep the brand alive.
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"[strike]George Bush[/strike]The OP hates black people." -- Kanye West

Isn't it obvious?
Edited by forAiur#2866 on 6/3/2012 5:43 PM PDT
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06/03/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Chrono
That's never even explained or hinted at. It's an explanation that's been cobbled together to cover up Blizzard's lack of detail.


How is that cobbled together? Book of Cain and the Sin War trilogy make it clear. No angel can interfere with mortal affairs without consequence. Becoming mortal, Tyrael gets around this.

06/03/2012 05:26 PMPosted by Chrono
Wow, what? They had NO idea that Diablo wreaked all kinds of havoc in D1 and that he freed his brothers in D2 resulting in all three Prime Evils rampaging across Sanctuary? That's ridiculous.


Angels are not omnipotent. Unlike what people think God and Angels are in christian belief, an Angel cannot see something they are not present for. Because the High Heavens were not interfering with Sanctuary, they were not present for these events.

They do not look down from the clouds and see the world below them in their entirety. They have to be physically on Sanctuary to see what is going on.

There is nothing ridiculous about this.
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Why would they trust lies, hatred, and terror incarnate to uphold their end of the bargain? The nephalem have the power to destroy Heaven and Hell. To leave them unwatched is extremely foolish. If the nephalem awoke to their power or if Hell forced them to fight for their cause the angels would be screwed.
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06/03/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Chrono
Why would they trust lies, hatred, and terror incarnate to uphold their end of the bargain?


Technically, it was Destruction, Hatred and Terror. And they did uphold their end of the bargain for a good few thousand years. They pulled out the Triune, they didn't let their forces rampage across Sanctuary, etc.

But the High Heavens had the war to contend with as well. Not to mention they wanted nothing to do with humanity.

06/03/2012 05:51 PMPosted by Chrono
The nephalem have the power to destroy Heaven and Hell. To leave them unwatched is extremely foolish. If the nephalem awoke to their power or if Hell forced them to fight for their cause the angels would be screwed.


Except they don't. The Sin War trilogy was about a small group of Nephalem gaining that power because one of their original makers, Lilith, attuned the stone to them. Since that time, since the Sin War, no human had the capacity to become a fully fledged Nephalem and actually have gotten weaker since that time.

Really, humanity was not important to Heaven in any way. And even then, if they did monitor things, the events of D1 and D2 were fairly controlled. They weren't realm-wide events. An angel would've had to have been in Tristram to have seen what was going on.
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You might actually have a good handle on things if you weren't so biased in your clear hatred of this game's story. I, a high school student with a love for writing and story, can see the faulty logic in your posts.

For one thing, stop using reductio ad absurdum to prove your points. It really kills the buzz of the story to dumb down and make things look stupid just to make yourself look better. If you can show me one story where things could not have been made easier for the characters by the writers, I will pick up a bible and start preaching for a living. EVERY SINGLE STORY has moments in it that are filler, or are cliche (because nothing is original anymore), or are exorbitantly long or don't really contribute anything. You seem like the kind of person who would say "In Lord of the Rings, why didn't they just fly the eagles to Mordor and throw the ring in Mount Doom?!", or "In Star Wars, why didn't Darth Vader kill the Emperor with his lightsaber so he didn't die himself?!". The writers use filler and long plot lines because the game is not about the beginning and the end, it's about the journey in the middle. Notice how that virtually no part of any movie or book dwells on what happens before or after the quest? You don't see Tolkien writing a whole other book about how perfect life was after Sauron's spirit was vanquished, do you?

You have a few good points, though, I'll give you that. For one thing, Belial and Azmodan were much too unlike their own characters. Belial should have been much more slippery and tricky to kill (he is the Lord of Lies), and I feel like Azmodan, as a brilliant commander and demon strategist, shouldn't have followed the mistakes of every major villain in the history of stories and told us every one of his plans and made us come to his lair in hell. It would have been much more compelling if Azmodan had taken a larger role in the battle of Bastion's Keep, such as making us delve into his lair in hell, only to find that he himself had launched a personal attack on the Keep, so we have to run back and kill him there. Also, Belial wasn't tricky enough. He's the lord of lies, shouldn't he have agents everywhere that look like our friends, or use that clever mind of his to elude capture and trick us into killing allies?

Your points about Tyrael, though, are, quite bluntly, stupid and uninformed. He's acting like a kid who threw a tempter tantrum?! Did you not watch the cinematic that you so loved? He's the archangel of justice, and the most righteous angel on the Angiris Council, so when Imperius and the others refused to help the innocent, which is the right thing to do, wouldn't it make sense that Tyrael would refuse to stand alongside those who would let an entire race die? He gave up his power because he would rather be a mortal then be an angel who wouldn't do anything while the demons slaughtered the humans. He's so willing to do what is right, that he gives up his power and his wings, the most coveted mark of an angel. Also, how was he supposed to know that his fall would raise the dead and King Leoric? Has an angel ever fallen in the Diablo series before? This is not ignorance presently, it is only ignorance in HINDSIGHT, which is most certainly not Tyrael's fault. It's like half the drama films and shows in existence where the character does something that we know about, because we're omnipotent, and they don't, and then calling them stupid for not knowing something that we do.

Your points about Adria, as well, are irritating. This woman is Leah's mother, not some stranger off the streets. She was a respected witch in Tristram and friend to Deckard Cain, doesn't that bring some credibility?! Besides, it's not like she was completely inconspicuous, there's a moment in Act II, before we release her, that our character warns Leah about her mother that things are not always as they seem. Plus, once we capture Azmodan in the Black Soulstone, she specifically says that she cannot shatter the stone right away, she needs to prepare rituals and incantations, and even if that wasn't true, again, by now we trust her. Trusting Adria isn't exactly like trusting a bandit who just tried to kill you. She's never done anything bad right up until we betray her. Again, it's only ignorant in HINDSIGHT. You keep making the conclusion that because we know something as an omnipotent observer, and the characters don't, that the characters are stupid.

For a grad student in literature, you are remarkably uniformed and hostile in your opinions. I saw all of two good points in your posts, while the rest was just trolling. You keep talking about how the story could have been made easier for the Nephalem and for Leah and Tyrael. Well, good for you. The next time a fallen star hits earth and a huge army of demons pours from Mount Vesuvius, I'll give you a call. It's not about what is easy, it's about what is epic. THAT is what makes a great story.
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In Azmodan's defense, he is Pride incarnate: it makes sense to have him constantly brag about himself and his plans.
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And they did uphold their end of the bargain for a good few thousand years. They pulled out the Triune, they didn't let their forces rampage across Sanctuary, etc.


They're still demons. Why is Heaven so convinced that Hell won't betray the pact? Would it hurt to have an angel or two keeping tabs on Sanctuary?

Except they don't. The Sin War trilogy was about a small group of Nephalem gaining that power because one of their original makers, Lilith, attuned the stone to them. Since that time, since the Sin War, no human had the capacity to become a fully fledged Nephalem and actually have gotten weaker since that time.


There's always the possibility that something like Tyrael destroying the worldstone and granting the nephalem their power would happen. Or Hell somehow doing something to that effect. Why would anyone refuse to take security precautions over a matter that has the potential to change the whole dynamic of the universal power struggle?
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