Diablo® III

{SPOILER} Sorry, but the Story is BAD



The story just isn't Diablo enough. The bad guys are weak and not menacing. Covetous Shen is stupid. Tyrael goes from being cool to being the biggest chump of all time that basically lead to tons of innocent people dying and Deckard Cain dying for no reason. The whole thing is basically us cleaning up our own stupid mess, and thats hardly heroic.



Please do not insult Covetous Shen. He is one of the more interesting and well thought out characters in the game. What if he is Zei the Trickster? What if you do happen to go on an adventure with him in search for the ominous jewel? Aside from that he has quite amusing things to say and stories to tell!
Edited by Pudclud#1856 on 6/3/2012 10:12 PM PDT
At first I didn't care that the story had plot holes you could walk a siegebreaker assault beast through but the more I think about it the more it bugs me.

The thing that irks me the most is the black soulstone/creation of the Prime Evil. Weren't the souls of Mephisto and Diablo destroyed at the hellforge in D2?

If destroying their soulstones didn't destroy their souls then how are we expected to believe that destroying the black soulstone will destroy the seven evils?
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
The thing that irks me the most is the black soulstone/creation of the Prime Evil. Weren't the souls of Mephisto and Diablo destroyed at the hellforge in D2?

If destroying their soulstones didn't destroy their souls then how are we expected to believe that destroying the black soulstone will destroy the seven evils?


Even in D2 they weren't destroyed. Tyrael even said. He said they went to The Abyss, a place beyond creation where Angels and Demons go after being 'permenantly' destroyed. They still exist, just beyond what we would consider the physical realms.

The Black Soulstone presumably can draw their souls out of the Abyss and into the stone, wherein all 7 evils would be sent to the Abyss at once.

Remember, Adria was lying the entire time. Why exactly are we taking her words as truth here?
the only twist / event that surprised me was the death of cain.

for everything else.. meh.

d2 isnt THAT good either, i just didn't thought D3 story will go lower.
At first I didn't care that the story had plot holes you could walk a siegebreaker assault beast through but the more I think about it the more it bugs me.

The thing that irks me the most is the black soulstone/creation of the Prime Evil. Weren't the souls of Mephisto and Diablo destroyed at the hellforge in D2?

If destroying their soulstones didn't destroy their souls then how are we expected to believe that destroying the black soulstone will destroy the seven evils?


Adria mapped the essence of the soulstones to the that of the black soulstone. This is during Diablo while she does this. If you dont remember she is actually not always at her tent while you go there for her services. Her reason for absence has always been unknown. She wouldve casted speells to do this and seeing she is a witch she would be effective at doing such. By mapping the souls to the blacksoul stone she finalise the agenda of Diablo, which is ultimately to become the Prime evil. If you do not remember while in hell this was the main agenda of the three prime evils. As they were causing civil war they also had comptetition from the lesser evils. They won eventually and banished them from hell. Apart from corrupting Sanctuary and the aim to topple the powers of heaven, the initial power struggle for the demons of hell was hell itself. No one clearly reigned supreme. Diablo wanted this. The three prime evils alone wanted to be prime, as in one soul leader of hell. Diablo in his cunning used and manipulated Adria like he did Lazerus to fulfil his wishes.

Tell me if my lore on the sin wars are sketchy.
Edited by sOLO#6733 on 6/4/2012 7:21 AM PDT

Your points about Tyrael, though, are, quite bluntly, stupid and uninformed. He's acting like a kid who threw a tempter tantrum?! Did you not watch the cinematic that you so loved? He's the archangel of justice, and the most righteous angel on the Angiris Council, so when Imperius and the others refused to help the innocent, which is the right thing to do, wouldn't it make sense that Tyrael would refuse to stand alongside those who would let an entire race die? He gave up his power because he would rather be a mortal then be an angel who wouldn't do anything while the demons slaughtered the humans. He's so willing to do what is right, that he gives up his power and his wings, the most coveted mark of an angel. Also, how was he supposed to know that his fall would raise the dead and King Leoric? Has an angel ever fallen in the Diablo series before? This is not ignorance presently, it is only ignorance in HINDSIGHT, which is most certainly not Tyrael's fault. It's like half the drama films and shows in existence where the character does something that we know about, because we're omnipotent, and they don't, and then calling them stupid for not knowing something that we do.


I think I will bite that. You see the entire problem with Tyrael and his presentation is that, whatever he does it's completely pointless. I was baffled at his "sacrifice" in the cinematic cutscene. You see, a sacrifice impiles sustaining willing harm onself in order to accomplish some higher goal, which would be unattainable otherwise. Tyrael got the first part right - he loses his angelic status, power and memories. Tyrael also totally botched the second part.

What was the point of his sacrifice again? To inform humans about impending demonic invasion? Does he really need to turn into a human to do that? Can he not simply appear in all his angelic majesty between the rulers of the world and ask them to unite, or something? Can he not do essentially the same stuff as before? That would be much more effective than turning into random human no one will take seriously, save for conveniently placed old-man, his perpetually disbelieving niece and PC. Not to mention, Tyrael turns amnesiac and almost ends up dead in the entire process, so he manages to warn anyone only due to some random fluke of [s]fate[/s] plot. Of course let's forget all about all the people he killed as a result of his decision.

Tyrael's "sacrifice" comes from nowehere and leads to nowhere. His "sacrifice" is a big dramatic device done horribly wrong - it's absolutely unbelieveable and contrived so that the plot can go the way it went - through the land of plotholes and stupidity. There's nothing sacrificial in it - the sense of importance just isn't there, because you can achieve the same or better results through easier and more effective means.

In fact, just like a spoiled brat having a bad tantrum over the squabble in the sandbox Tyrael ends up messing up sandcastles for every other kid and giving nothing in return. He let's his emotions take control, does something stupid and innocent people end up dead. Yep, that fits the definition of "temper-tantrum" in my book. That's also one of the primary reason Tyrael's characterisation is borderline juvenile.
The thing that irks me the most is the black soulstone/creation of the Prime Evil. Weren't the souls of Mephisto and Diablo destroyed at the hellforge in D2?

If destroying their soulstones didn't destroy their souls then how are we expected to believe that destroying the black soulstone will destroy the seven evils?


Even in D2 they weren't destroyed. Tyrael even said. He said they went to The Abyss, a place beyond creation where Angels and Demons go after being 'permenantly' destroyed. They still exist, just beyond what we would consider the physical realms.

The Black Soulstone presumably can draw their souls out of the Abyss and into the stone, wherein all 7 evils would be sent to the Abyss at once.

Remember, Adria was lying the entire time. Why exactly are we taking her words as truth here?


The problem with this is that we have two conflicting explanations of what happened to the evils.

I agree that in the book of cain it is explained that the primes would have been banished to the abyss.

However when you talk to adria in-game and you select the 'adria's quest' dialogue she actually says that she marked the 'essences' of the lords of the five lords of hell which were still around in the 'world'. Now essences must mean the same as souls as it were the essences which were drawn into the black soulstone.

I think this is very confusing. One account saying the souls are in the abyss, the other saying the souls remained in Sanctuary.

Furthermore there is apparantly now difference in the treatment of Diablo, Mephisto and Baal on the one hand and Duriel and Andariel on the other, the latter two having been slain without ever having a soulstone.

I don't think Adria lies about everything and see no reason for her to have lied about the marking of the souls to be drawn into the soulstone.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
You can sacrifice something for nothing tangible, you know. You can sacrifice something for your morals, beliefs, faith. People died, often, the ultimate sacrifice, to keep their religious freedom. And yet they get nothing physical out of it, do they? Everything they died for was spiritual, mental and intangible.

Your misconception, Mrowaksu, is that somebody needs to get something tangible, a measurable reward, for their sacrifice. And yet when we are talking about morals, about faith and about beliefs there is nothing measurable about that. You can't measure somebody's moral stance, nor how much it increases or decreases based on their actions.

Tyrael sacrificed his wings because he was not willing to sacrifice his beliefs and morals, the essence of what he was, to just stand by and do nothing. Because as an Angel, he would not have been able to act.

Do you really think that if Tyrael just went "No, I'm going to Sanctuary as an angel" that Imperius would've been "Oh, I see the error of my ways."? No. You get right from the start that wasn't going to fly. Imperius and the entire Angelic host was willing to sit by and do nothing while humanity, an innocent race, was wiped out.

Tyrael sacrificed for his beliefs. Rather than be a coward and compromise his morals the moment somebody said 'no'.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/14969814/images/1305746116351.jpg

The above frame explains what I feel about Tyrael's actions.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/04/2012 07:58 AMPosted by Dirach
However when you talk to adria in-game and you select the 'adria's quest' dialogue she actually says that she marked the 'essences' of the lords of the five lords of hell which were still around in the 'world'. Now essences must mean the same as souls as it were the essences which were drawn into the black soulstone.


In the Book of Cain, it is said that Mephisto's soul was not able to escape his soulstone until Diablo arrived in Kurast with Baal.

Consider this: Why do we believe Adria?

Who is to say SHE marked Mephisto and Diablo? Diablo made this plan 20 years ago. With Adria. In her hut. You don't think they would've marked Diablo's soul right then and there? And do you not think that if Adria knows how to mark souls, Diablo would too? So wouldn't it make sense that Diablo marked Mephisto's soul before releasing him from the stone?

You need to consider everything that Adria said may've been a half truth. Do we really know if the stone could be destroyed? Or was that just a ploy to get us to go along with it? Did she really mark the souls or did Diablo do all the work and she simply take the credit? Did she really spend 20 years wandering Sanctuary or did she just wait that 20 years for Leah to come of age and Belial and Azmodan to make their move?
06/04/2012 08:06 AMPosted by Melyria
However when you talk to adria in-game and you select the 'adria's quest' dialogue she actually says that she marked the 'essences' of the lords of the five lords of hell which were still around in the 'world'. Now essences must mean the same as souls as it were the essences which were drawn into the black soulstone.


In the Book of Cain, it is said that Mephisto's soul was not able to escape his soulstone until Diablo arrived in Kurast with Baal.

Consider this: Why do we believe Adria?

Who is to say SHE marked Mephisto and Diablo? Diablo made this plan 20 years ago. With Adria. In her hut. You don't think they would've marked Diablo's soul right then and there? And do you not think that if Adria knows how to mark souls, Diablo would too? So wouldn't it make sense that Diablo marked Mephisto's soul before releasing him from the stone?

You need to consider everything that Adria said may've been a half truth. Do we really know if the stone could be destroyed? Or was that just a ploy to get us to go along with it? Did she really mark the souls or did Diablo do all the work and she simply take the credit? Did she really spend 20 years wandering Sanctuary or did she just wait that 20 years for Leah to come of age and Belial and Azmodan to make their move?


What you're saying could very well be true, but that would have to become apparant in future installments or books. For now your explanation is guesswork, which is fine, but I think the whole plot with the soulstones needs/needed further explanation in the game or future expansions.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/04/2012 08:16 AMPosted by Dirach


In the Book of Cain, it is said that Mephisto's soul was not able to escape his soulstone until Diablo arrived in Kurast with Baal.

Consider this: Why do we believe Adria?

Who is to say SHE marked Mephisto and Diablo? Diablo made this plan 20 years ago. With Adria. In her hut. You don't think they would've marked Diablo's soul right then and there? And do you not think that if Adria knows how to mark souls, Diablo would too? So wouldn't it make sense that Diablo marked Mephisto's soul before releasing him from the stone?

You need to consider everything that Adria said may've been a half truth. Do we really know if the stone could be destroyed? Or was that just a ploy to get us to go along with it? Did she really mark the souls or did Diablo do all the work and she simply take the credit? Did she really spend 20 years wandering Sanctuary or did she just wait that 20 years for Leah to come of age and Belial and Azmodan to make their move?


What you're saying could very well be true, but that would have to become apparant in future installments or books. For now your explanation is guesswork, which is fine, but I think the whole plot with the soulstones needs/needed further explanation in the game or future expansions.


Considering we're going to get an expansion with Adria as the likely end boss, I'd say we will.

I'm just saying, people are awfully quick to take Adria, a betrayer, at her word.
Also, what you're implying means the souls would have to be marked by Diablo when their owners were still alive and kicking, as Diablo is not near them when they die and Baal dies after Diablo.


Even in D2 they weren't destroyed. Tyrael even said. He said they went to The Abyss, a place beyond creation where Angels and Demons go after being 'permenantly' destroyed. They still exist, just beyond what we would consider the physical realms.

The Black Soulstone presumably can draw their souls out of the Abyss and into the stone, wherein all 7 evils would be sent to the Abyss at once.

Remember, Adria was lying the entire time. Why exactly are we taking her words as truth here?


The problem with this is that we have two conflicting explanations of what happened to the evils.

I agree that in the book of cain it is explained that the primes would have been banished to the abyss.

However when you talk to adria in-game and you select the 'adria's quest' dialogue she actually says that she marked the 'essences' of the lords of the five lords of hell which were still around in the 'world'. Now essences must mean the same as souls as it were the essences which were drawn into the black soulstone.

I think this is very confusing. One account saying the souls are in the abyss, the other saying the souls remained in Sanctuary.

Furthermore there is apparantly now difference in the treatment of Diablo, Mephisto and Baal on the one hand and Duriel and Andariel on the other, the latter two having been slain without ever having a soulstone.

I don't think Adria lies about everything and see no reason for her to have lied about the marking of the souls to be drawn into the soulstone.


Or prehaps both are wrong. i've been thinking about how they aren't truly dead but just in "limbo". maybe they cannot die? Imagine a world where only God exists without the devil? its like the yin and yang - demons to angels. And its an excuse for another expansion WHICH I WANNA PLAY YEAAUGH.
To talk about the first post about the story? TL and holy crap you know what? go to blizzard ok? Apply for storyboards (since you are so good at this) and write a better story. I don't even want to explain how much you need to condense and also need to understand. I swear, i could have baked a pizza reading what you had to say.
I'd like to turn to my fav youtube video : sequelitis episode 2. Basically it talks about "true motivation". It means you as the player (god i want italics) want to kill belial and azmodan.
A thread was made at this forum talking about re-writing blelial and azmodan. It goes a little like this (paraphrasing)
Belial - he tricks you into killing him but instead you actually kill the real emperor and his men and several innocents. He taunts you and it pisses you off. now you are a wanted man.
Azmodan is waaay smarter and is way more devious. nothing like that awkward momet where they go and do something while you were away. no...he literally tears a friggen hole in the keep and kicks !@# and there is a huge epic battle.
my point? these two are boring and the story should be nudged in said direction. I think it would be enjoyable.

About tyreal:
I honestly think that those who say he's going on a temper tantrum really need to be more empathetic. You represent justice and see that your group whom you love and cherish has lost their way. What do you do? You plea to them. To be told you are wrong for doing what you think is right pisses you off. I see that tyreal represents not only justice but an ever changing mindset. "the ancient laws" are valued but they do not serve the conclave err i mean council lol. Now that i think about it- the protoss did the same thing in starcraft..hmmm. Anyway, you feel betrayed and do not wish to stand with those who do not share your visions. I cannot see what the problem is here.
Edited by Necrogen#1157 on 6/4/2012 8:41 AM PDT
you're a very slow reader (or a very fast cook).
06/04/2012 08:37 AMPosted by Dirach
you're a very slow reader (or a very fast cook).


Lol i'm just trying to be fair and understand what the person was saying. I go to many forums where i get the TLDR people and they just talk out of their tookus.
I want to address only one thing here. No one knew what would happen if an angel transubstaite into a human form in the world of Diablo. Its never mentioned in lore that I've read or within the games. So If he doesn't know what effects of ripping his wings off will have, how is that bad writing?



Because you don't write a story to please your characters, or strictly so they make sense. You write a story to please your audience. Just because a character does somethings that causes unknown consequences to further the story, or makes sense to them, does not mean it makes sense to the reader or creates a good story line.

In order for a story to be good in an RPG, it has to keep the player guessing, or at least intrigued. Personally, I never felt either. I never even cared who Belial was before I figured it out. I only knew it would turn out to be some schmuck I was going to have to kill without any heartbreak or hesitation. What do you know, I was right. ;) The only thing I was looking forward to was nearing the end of Act 3 when I wondered with anticipation where I was going to go in Act 4 and exactly how Diablo was going to get there. (BTW, my biggest problem with the game was that Act 4, and maybe Act 3, were too short. It would have been cool if the battle against Diablo shook the Arch and caused it to crumble so that we both fell from the heavens and then you had to track a weakened Diablo through another, shorter landscape where he corrupted the populace in his wake and you were faced with a moral dilemma about how much killing of the residents you needed to do to find him. Perhaps the final battle could have even have incorporated some innocents as objects to avoid that increase Diablo's power when destroyed.)

The moments have to feel epic especially concerning established franchise elements. Cain's death would have been fine in a George R.R. Martin novel, or perhaps even in the original Diablo setting, but felt like a let down in a so obviously WOW inspired epic cartoon setting.

The player has to feel involved in the story and given a certain amount of choice (none of either was given here). Even cutting some cinematics with the heroes in them would have helped a lot here, and worth the extra effort from Blizzard IMO. I certainly would have appreciated it.

In the case of Tyreal choosing this method to remove himself from heaven, I'm split. He clearly didn't think this through. If he truly didn't know what would happen, he could of just as easily been stuck in heaven as a mortal with no way to get out. Oops. Anyway, it's OK at best as it is, but the real problem is that after realizing the consequences of his actions, the humans, nor Tyreal himself, the supposed embodiment of Justice, never attempt to hold him responsible for his actions. No atonement, punishment, or even feelings of guilt are discussed in the game at all. Unless I missed some lore here? If not, it is indeed bad writing IMO.

D3 seems more like just an action game with some RPG elements thrown in, but I cannot really take it seriously as a full ARPG. That's fine since its what I expected from the franchise, but I guess I'm just surprised that so many posters are so upset with with the story in view of this. And by the same token, posters so adamantly defending it. On top of that most debates are raging about story elements based on character perceptions and how well it fits the lore instead of how it affects the audience.
Edited by Gaiawolf#1368 on 6/4/2012 8:49 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/04/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Dirach
Also, what you're implying means the souls would have to be marked by Diablo when their owners were still alive and kicking, as Diablo is not near them when they die and Baal dies after Diablo.


That is exactly what I'm implying. Diablo came into contact with Baal, Mephisto, himself, Andariel and Duriel.
In the case of Tyreal choosing this method to remove himself from heaven, I'm split. He clearly didn't think this through. If he truly didn't know what would happen, he could of just as easily been stuck in heaven as a mortal with no way to get out. Oops. Anyway, it's OK at best as it is, but the real problem is that after realizing the consequences of his actions, the humans, nor Tyreal himself, the supposed embodiment of Justice, never attempt to hold him responsible for his actions. No atonement, punishment, or even feelings of guilt are discussed in the game at all. Unless I missed some lore here? If not, it is indeed bad writing IMO.


I think blizzard wanted to make that point clear. "Angels are no better than demons and that each side isn't perfect". Look at the opening cinematic for act 2. Even angels fight among themselves. A certain piece of lore states that ages ago the angel of wisdom had left the council.
I have to agree though that the writing should have been better. As i said before Belial and Azmodan...ugh they give me a headache.
Your misconception, Mrowaksu, is that somebody needs to get something tangible, a measurable reward, for their sacrifice. And yet when we are talking about morals, about faith and about beliefs there is nothing measurable about that. You can't measure somebody's moral stance, nor how much it increases or decreases based on their actions.

Tyrael sacrificed his wings because he was not willing to sacrifice his beliefs and morals, the essence of what he was, to just stand by and do nothing. Because as an Angel, he would not have been able to act.


Please do not compare Tyrael's sacrifice - which is essentially pointless, has no spirituality attached to it and does more harm than good - to real life, heroic sacrifices of people who by losing their health and lives made profound statements in the history of the world and mindsets of countless individuals. The difference is like Hell and Heaven. And I bet my three letters that if real people could achieve the same effect through easier means, by not losing their lives, they would go for it any day.

Do you really think that if Tyrael just went "No, I'm going to Sanctuary as an angel" that Imperius would've been "Oh, I see the error of my ways."? No. You get right from the start that wasn't going to fly. Imperius and the entire Angelic host was willing to sit by and do nothing while humanity, an innocent race, was wiped out.


Was it stated like that? No, it was just Imperious acting all angry with Tyrael. You have filled that blanks yourself, I fear. It's bad storytelling when you have to fill whole chunks of the story yourself. Making the reader interpret the story on multiple layers of meaning = good. Forcing the audience to create their own narrative in order to fill the plotholes = bad.

Tyrael sacrificed for his beliefs. Rather than be a coward and compromise his morals the moment somebody said 'no'.

The above frame explains what I feel about Tyrael's actions.


It's all fine and dandy, but it isn't there., because the sacrifice achives nothing on any level - spritual, physical or any other. You are adding the meaning yourself where there's nothing like that.

However there's a simple fix for the scene to convey everything you wanted.

Tyrael sits in shackles before the angelic court. There are all the archangels seated in the hall. They find him guilty of breaking heavenly laws, yet they offer Tyrael a chance to rejoin them provided he ceases to meddle in human world - whch would be ensured through a powerful spell. Tyrael refuses - he knows he must warn mankind about demonic invasion. Make it clear that Tyrael is aware of the consequences of his response - he is willing to sacrifice himself. The jury passes on the sentence. Imperious and two other archangels approach Tyrael. Tyrael tries to defend but is ultimately overpowered - they tear his wings from his flesh apart - one 'feather' by one. Make this scene gruesome, with screams of terror and pain - as unmajsestic, beastial as possible - completely counter to the splendour of the angels and the hall. Tyrael falls from the Heavens as normal.

Such scene would accomplish severals things the one we have cannot:

1) It would remain true to original darker tone of the Diablo series (as opposed to 'Go, go Power Rangers' tone).

2) It would carry allegorical meaning. The jury passing their sentence on Justice itself and consequences of it. The sentence itself and its execution would serve to show the unfairness when the aspect of Justice itself is lost, perhaps foreshadowing corruption within angelic hosts. As a result, the audience has opportunity to intepret things instead of plugging in the jarring plotholes.

3) The sacrifice would be meaningful. It would entail real spiritual and physical anguish. Also it makes it clear that Tyrael forgoes this sacrifice with a very good reason in mind - he must warn the mankind and losing wings is the only viable way to do that.

4) The consequence of sacrifice wouldn't be stupid. Sure, the army of dead would raise on its own, but this would be something Tyrael cannot take full responsibility for. Plus, perhaps raising a few dead may be in his eyes nothing to the full-scale demonic invasion he cannot warn anyone about in any other way.

5) Generally it makes Tyrael a mature, level-headed character, completely devoted to his agenda - spreading justice - as opposed spoiled brat with no concept of reponsibilities that cannot take 3-4 seconds to think things through. Even if something goes wrong (e.g. he loses memories) - he cannot be blamed for ignorance, and there's at least some chance that he will share the news, instead of none.
Hey. Hey. Let's talk about the other lore breaking things that happened? Mmmkay? Like the wanderer. When did he decide to become Leoric's second son? Oh oh, and Adria. http://youtu.be/T7Zm8f2j3dk Poor Adria, what have they done to you?

Honestly, the writing isn't anything special. I had my fingers crossed that Hakkan wasn't Belial because it's predictable, but then bam, guess what kiddies? He's Belial.

/facepalm

Same went for Adria. I actually thought she was going to turn out to be Belial. Definitely pinged me as evil from the get-go when you don't consider her to be from the first game (or just forgot her characterization). As for Leah, I don't like her as a character, but her turning out to be Diablo's spawn caught me off guard. It was the only twist I didn't see and was a pleasant surprise (probably because I didn't like her >>. Mary Sue much?)

Saw Tyrael in his little crater of shame and instantly pinged that it was totally Tyrael (what gave it away was actually the Wrath trailer. I recognized the voice actor).

Anyways, there were some good parts, but there's a lot of bad parts to the story too. If retconning has to happen excessively for a story to work, then that's saying something about the writer. :|

(retconned: The butcher, Izual, Adria, Aidan, soulstones, Tyrael's voice actor [not quite a retcon, but I miss his original voice. Very calm and wise, not just going for intimidating]) Oh, and Tyrael taking Malthael's spot as wisdom. The big guy sure didn't act very wise throughout d3. As an aspect of justice, he (from what I've read up from other posts) can't just choose to be a new aspect like in WoW. The aspects in Diablo are aspects of a greater entity. It would be like a personification of my anger decided to be of fluffy kittens instead (wait..those are kind of the same).

Justice was only met for that day, there's still injustices that will happen. What now, bro? Just gonna leave those people hanging? We really understand that you think Malthael's position was neat, but you can't just proclaim yourself wisdom (if anyone was going to take his place, imo it would be Itherael taking on two aspects. Wisdom and fate are very similar). Or...I dunno. If Cain wasn't dead I think he'd fit the wisdom bill. Imperius can go blow a gasket for all I care :D

pardon my written up-chuck.
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