Diablo® III

Reasoned, calm exit post: for the devs

Sorry for the small wall of text incoming. If I could make it shorter I would have. Following are my reasons for stopping playing D3 for now. I have been at times very critical on these forums (as well as complimentary where I thought it was due), but I've tried to keep this post logical and rational. This is mostly for the devs who have encouraged those quitting to explain their reasons for doing so, so let's just take the "if you don't like it just leave" and "can I have your stuff" posts as a given:

  • 1. Online only. I realize there is no way around this now, but it remains the biggest issue I have with D3. It causes lag, disconnect deaths, and all manner of frustration when combined with the points below, especially in a game designed as an Action RPG. I also realize it was necessitated by the RMAH, which sticks in my craw as well, because I am philosophically and practically vehemently against it for all the reasons people have already outlined on these forums.
  • 2. Elites and mob AI. The reckless, badly thought through ability combinations are game breaking. There seems to be a general design attitude of punitivity, which I suspect comes directly from Jay Wilson, who is responsible either way as the Lead/Director. Unfair mechanics in combination with each other result in unavoidable death. Unfair gameplay is not difficult or challenging, it is demoralizing and frustrating and infuriating and insulting. Unavoidable one-shot deaths from instant attacks either off the screen or at the characters feet... well, what can anyone say in response. When combined with ever-changing ping rates and server lag, and the focused action gameplay of the overall design, it's unworkably counter-intuitive and the diametrical opposite of any concept of fun.
  • 3. Itemization and drop rates. Devs have said conflicting things about this, and so I don't know what to believe. However the experience of playing the game is that there are far too few good drops, far too many bemusingly bad drops, and far too many meaningless item stats on those drops (high strength roles on a bow for example). The entire system is broken and needs to be reviewed. After a couple of hundred hours of gameplay and farming (Highlands, Act 1 mostly), I found 3 useless legendaries, and no set pieces. In the end that removes any reason to push on. It became a frustrating chore very quickly. A prolonged, frustrating battle with an unfairly abilitied set of elites rewarded nothing over and over again, so why bother? The reality that you need items from future acts to realistically get to those acts is.. inane, and a pretty transparent plug for the AH's.
  • 4. A climate of restriction and control. All the nerfs to fair farming areas, and the generally constrictive view of the designers ("play the game our way, not your way") - from not being able to move with map open to not being able to make more than a set number of games in an hour and all the many things inbetween - makes the overall experience disheartening. Say what you will about the reasons for doing this, the end result is a feeling of betrayal, discontentment, embitterment, and finally resignation. It has made the game poorer in many ways, and continues to.
  • 5. The RMAH. All that can be said about this has been said many times over by those of us who oppose its existence. Suffice to say it has changed the game world fundamentally, and has devalued ingame achievement to the point where it is not compelling at all for many of us. No point arguing about that, it's just a fact, and means we simply won't play for long. Most of those who leave won't bother to post here, they'll just quietly log off and the game will never see them again.


Perhaps the final two things I can say are these: I am a member of a kind of old school gaming fraternity. A bunch of us who have been gaming for many years - since games began actually - who founded and worked on games websites, and now work in the industry as developers, meet up in every new game and journey through it together. It is a lifelong set of friendships that exist outside games, but which have gained enormous enrichment from gaming together. All of us without exception hold the same view after only a month playing D3, and are heartily disappointed with D3 and the new Blizzard/Activision.

Secondly, I was just recently able to play the Torchlight 2 beta. Although I have a strong aversion to the Wow-ified art style, the game is everything D3 should have been. The contrast on booting it up and playing was immediate and profound - and that was against my natural aversion to its aesthetic. The difference between the two games is absolute in concept and design ethos. TL2 empowers the player for fun at every point (single player, LAN, Online modes; modable etc.),where D3 blocks the player from control, freedom, and fun at every single point. D3 forces you to play "Jay's way" or no way at all.

And well, since that is finally the only choice D3 has given us, that is the choice many of us are making. I'm hoping 1.03 will fix things somewhat but if it doesn't, I'm sorry to say, I and my friends will be in TL2 come July+ anyway now, when we had all looked forward to another enduring adventure within the Diablo world.
Edited by t0lkien#1368 on 6/14/2012 8:57 AM PDT
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Liked and looking forward to seeing more players like this in TL2 as well.
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Make sure you check back in every once in awhile. Game will be around a long time and I think you may be dropping out a bit early. Good Luck.
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Well said. You nailed every major reason I am leaving. I wish I could have organized my thoughts like this when I was explaining why I was asking for a refund of the game.

I would like to add the disappointment I had in the story of the game as well. They story seemed rushed. No real value to the story and was not tied in very well to the previous games. They destroyed all the characters we came to love and look up to in the game, Cain of which is the hardest felt death by a pretty trivial character. I always thought he would go down fighting against the minions of hell, or ascend as "Wisdom" in the Silver City... Instead what we get is a dead Cain and a fallen Tyreal as the former Archangel of Justice and now he is Wisdom in Silver City but as a mortal.

I am going to try to put this game out of my mind and remember Diablo as it once was and maybe that's what I should have done all along. Nothing can compare to the best of our childhood memories. I feel bad for those who are having their best childhood memories being made on this version.
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While not as disheartened as the OP, and still playing, I have to empathize with a lot of this sentiment.

The fun of Diablo was in the farming and seeing a drop that was exciting, like opening a Christmas Present. Now, when I identify a rare, there's no anticipation becuase I "know" it's going to be worthless. I have had 3 lengendaries drop for - one of which I managed to sell for 50k gold, the others of which clutter my vault because they are unsellable. Contrast this with the feeling from D2 when you say a gold-text Swirling Crystal drop and knew that that was something good....there's just not enough loot rewards from farming to motivate play. I farm for gold now, rather than items - it feels hollow.

Those endless Countess runs for runes - we did them because there was the thrill of gambling - maybe a good rune would drop. If not, restart and do again. But at least there was that potential at the end that you might get something good (if not great). And runes could be combined so that even the lower runs gave you something useful.

I am not quitting. But I am definitely not putting any more real money into the game until and unless there is a significant expansion/change/redesign or whatever that addresses the itemization issues.
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I agree with the points made about the story mostly, though I can see what they tried to do (and have experience trying to do the same in computer games as a designer, and so have empathy for the process; it's often a brutal one for the writer). Also, some of the CG I thought was excellent. Cain - I agree, that was a bad move. I think the Book of Cain so impressed me that I couldn't bring myself to criticize the storyline too much afterward (as the BoC kind of filled it out for me before the fact).
Edited by t0lkien#1368 on 6/14/2012 11:26 AM PDT
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06/14/2012 09:03 AMPosted by Andy
Oh you're leaving? *heads to the kitchen to make a sandwich*


Nevertheless, thanks for the bump!
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While not as disheartened as the OP, and still playing, I have to empathize with a lot of this sentiment.

The fun of Diablo was in the farming and seeing a drop that was exciting, like opening a Christmas Present. Now, when I identify a rare, there's no anticipation becuase I "know" it's going to be worthless. I have had 3 lengendaries drop for - one of which I managed to sell for 50k gold, the others of which clutter my vault because they are unsellable. Contrast this with the feeling from D2 when you say a gold-text Swirling Crystal drop and knew that that was something good....there's just not enough loot rewards from farming to motivate play. I farm for gold now, rather than items - it feels hollow.

Those endless Countess runs for runes - we did them because there was the thrill of gambling - maybe a good rune would drop. If not, restart and do again. But at least there was that potential at the end that you might get something good (if not great). And runes could be combined so that even the lower runs gave you something useful.

I am not quitting. But I am definitely not putting any more real money into the game until and unless there is a significant expansion/change/redesign or whatever that addresses the itemization issues.


Very much agreed, both with the OP, and you. I believe that I have already gotten my money's worth, so I will not be getting a refund, but I'm not planning on spending many more hours on this game. Poor plot, poor design, poor damage control performed when exploits were found, and a RMAH released long before all the damage was dealt with, add to the poor interface (look at the thread I just posted: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5814351622 where I VERY scarcasticly thank Blizz for some of those) and everything the OP pointed out, to form a game seriously unworthy of the series. Hopefully some MAJOR patchwork and expansions work to solve these issues... but I somehow doubt it.

OP, good luck, and enjoy TL2.
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this. all of this.

I will play both. i'm hugely disappointed i don't have beta access to TL2... cause i might just play it and leave d3 behind.

there's no purpose to playing d3 until the 'hopefully soon' patch, and that patch doesn't even address all of our concerns.

The fact that TL2 is coming out in beta as strong as it is, and diablo3 is still falling on its face, proof positive that the team behind d3, and not the game itself, is where the error lies, and primarily, in its director.

its truly disheartening to wait so long for a game, get so incredibly excited, and then discover that its an act1 inferno grind fest.

150+ hours played. no legendaries, no sets, everything on my character came from the AH or a friend who managed to get his DH into a3 before the herp and derp.

i'm playing the game cause i cannot bring myself to admit its as !@#$ty as it is.

kinda the same reason i played duke nukem all the way through.
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i find it tough to judge blizzard games some were amazing off the bat while other took time to iron out

any1 remember the stash in vanilla D2

or gambling

lack of interesting loot

remember how much better the game was when LOD hit it was like a different game

my point is that this game is not finished yet and this is blizzard hold on to some hope
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1 Blood Elf Warrior
0
One of the better, "Exit posts" I have seen and well articulated at that. All of your points are well thought out, defined, and sad to say, true.

I am also part of what you would call an old school group of gamers who have been playing together since BBS MUD's. These days we beta test, help with design, and play, more games than I would care to mention here. In the first few days of release our group accounted for 134 sales of Diablo 3, I know, a drop in the bucket. 90% of my starter group is emphatically insisting that we as a group, request a refund in the hopes of getting Jay to listen to some of the concerns raised by so many.

17 of us have spent 10 hours a day for the last 4 days pure farming Act 2 Inferno, that is 680 hours of pure farming, without any of us finding a single item, not one, that could be used IN Act 2 Inferno, no less progress beyond Act 2. This, in and of itself, tells us more than anyone would need to know about the RMAH I believe.

Today is the final day of our farming test run, which it looks like will end with 850 hours of farming for zero useable items.

I have been trying hard to convince others that it will get better, but it keeps getting worse. I WANT D3 to be good, actually, I want it to be amazing, but I am finding it harder and harder to convince everyone to "give it one more day" because it might get better.
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I feel the exact same way. Though I will hold out just a bit longer to see if heads get removed from butts. Only thing that will salvaged the game is fixing drops so AH is not a primary source of getting gear. GAH after 2 days is no longer a viable option as everything is on RMAH that is an upgrade to my already crap gear.
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agreed with this post. See you at TL2

I said similarly frustrating things here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5596255698

I won't quit the game as I have already paid it. I'm going to hope for changes that will make it tolerable, but with over 60% of the sticky posts talking only about the AH, you can see where the focus of the designers are at. "there in it for the long haul (of cash)"

I had friends and family that asked me if they should get the game, I told them to read my post and decide for themselves. So far no one has purchased the game after reading it.

I also purchased TL2 and it gave me TL1 free for a 1/3 of the price of this. TL1 already showed me that the original diablo developers were there, the first 5 minutes I felt playing that the people behind this game knew what I wanted in a game. what a difference. The graphics are cartoony, but hey, D3 looks cartoony too. That's not enough of a reason to discredit it. The game play is satisfying like D2 was. It's winning me over.

Also I purchased a pre order of Grim Dawn, from former designers of Titan's Quest, Crate entertainment. It will try to take the crown from D2 as the best of the genre. Look at the designer's opening comments, you know you have a group that's focused on making a great game, not a great auction house.

Right now anything, even Titan's quest immortal throne is leagues better than this game, and it was made in 06-07. D3 can't fit in to the genre that was created by it's predecessor..
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06/14/2012 09:26 AMPosted by MaglinJosVin
s truly disheartening to wait so long for a game, get so incredibly excited, and then discover that its an act1 inferno grind fest.


Exactly how I have been feeling. Well said comment on a well made post.
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I have more faith in the development team than some, apparently. Although I'm not completely satisfied (see my post above in this thread) I have seen enough games go through this kind of rocky start to not lose hope just yet.

Blizzard is a competent company with competent people in it. They are not deaf to our complaints. But fixing something like this takes time, and a lot of testing. It would be very easy to increase drop rates. And the howling about how they broke the market and everything is too easy to get would be instantaneous.

I will wait (and play, at least some of the time) for an expansion or major patch before saying that the game is broken or dead. But I know for sure the farming fun I had in D2 isnt here...yet.

Until then, there's other games.
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I liked your post, but I don't think the situation is as grim as you present.

When players aren't howling mad that it is too easy they are howling mad that it is too hard. I assume you are speaking of Inferno mode. I just got to nightmare...


Then get to inferno before you start to try to analyze the OP's reasons on why he thinks this game is flawed. You have no idea what it is like because you have not experienced it yet. Yes this game plays easily and seemingly fun throughout all the difficulties up until Inferno. It is at that point you will see how unforgiving lag can be, how certain elite combos are unbeatable, how not being able to obtain gear for your character at the current area you are at, forcing you to use the auction house, and many other points that people of these forums have brought up, make this game not fun... for me and many others at least.
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+1. Well put OP. I hope the dev team gets a chance to read this. Most of the player base won't say anything and will just log off, like you said. I'm hopeful that they will get it right. I'll also be looking into TL2.

I stopped playing last week but I still browse the forums in the off chance that there is something worth reading or a blue that has answered a question that is relevant to the game.
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Your thoughts are well laid out, and while I disagree with you on the auction house and RMAH (it's the natural progression of things to give players more freedom in trading and acquisition), I agree with you on every other point.

Check out my thread which outlines my disappointment and hopefully some of the Blizzard developers see well-written posts like ours: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5638013687
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