Diablo® III

Azmodan the tactical genius....

only has 1 tactic.
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haha so true
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
06/14/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Geo
only has 1 tactic.


He baited you into bringing the soulstone to Arreat. So one tactic is using himself as bait.

He spoiled the food stores of Bastion Keep. So that is the tactic of controlling resources.

He attacked from below as well as above. The tactic of the Pincer Movement.

He employed siege weaponry.

He employed superior numbers.

He employed the element of surprise.

He set up an impressive defense.

He uses more than one tactic. He uses several at once. Just because you've over simplified it doesn't make it true.
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Posts: 479
06/14/2012 04:26 PMPosted by Geo
only has 1 tactic.


Elaborate please.
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only has 1 tactic.


He baited you into bringing the soulstone to Arreat. So one tactic is using himself as bait.

I won't argue here... it's a bad tactic, but that's beside the point.


He spoiled the food stores of Bastion Keep. So that is the tactic of controlling resources.

I mean... this is true, but it's also a totaly pointless tactic when multiple people in the Keep are capable of creating portals (I mean, what's the point of destorying food supplies, they can simply be replaced via portal).


He attacked from below as well as above. The tactic of the Pincer Movement.

He didn't do both at the same time though..... if he had the keep would have likely fallen (it was pretty screwed from above before we showed up to fix things, and the basement would absolutely have fallen without us.


He employed siege weaponry.

I don't know that this is exactly a tactic.


He employed superior numbers.

Ok, this is fair, but it's not exactly an advanced tactic that only a tactical mastermind could pull off, it's kind of war 101.


He employed the element of surprise.

This is flat out wrong, he actively ruined every chance at surprise he had by constantly informing us of his plans. I mean, he even tells is that he has minions coming in through the basement....


He set up an impressive defense.


This isn't really true due to any special tactics he employed however, it is perhaps part of his overall straggly (turtleing I suppose), but it's not really a tactic.


He uses more than one tactic. He uses several at once. Just because you've over simplified it doesn't make it true.


Let's face it. It's true that he uses more than 1 tactic, but he doesn't use very many and they almost all suck. Pretty disappointing from the "master tactician" of hell.
Edited by Varjo#1406 on 6/15/2012 12:39 AM PDT
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He attacked from below as well as above. The tactic of the Pincer Movement.


Attacking a castle on multiple locations in a siege isn't a pincer movement. Learn what words mean before using them. A pincer movement involves attacking both the enemies flank in a battle.

06/14/2012 05:00 PMPosted by Melyria
He employed siege weaponry.


Employing siege weaponry in a siege is as much a tactic as using a knife to stab/cut somebody
Edited by Dirach#1299 on 6/15/2012 1:35 AM PDT
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His best tactic involves him sending his strongest at you one by one and uses messengers when he could pop his fat head up and taunt anytime he wants.
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Azmodan: ZERG RUSH! KEKEKEKEKEKE

Tyreal: SUCH GENIUS!

Characters in this game seem to be rather retarded.
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Azmodan: "I used to be a tactical genius, but then I took an arrow to all six knees."
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
I won't argue here... it's a bad tactic, but that's beside the point.


Actually. Think about this. Luring the Soulstone to Arreat means he knows where it is. Instead of having to scour Sanctuary for it, potentially having it hidden from him in an alternate dimension like Kulle's body, it saved him a lot of time and effort.

And once the stone got there, the Evils started rioting inside, locking the Soulstone in place in essence.

06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
I mean... this is true, but it's also a totaly pointless tactic when multiple people in the Keep are capable of creating portals (I mean, what's the point of destorying food supplies, they can simply be replaced via portal).


Because portals tend to be a gameplay mechanics and aren't actually portals across the world. We see one person making a portal, Adria, and that is back to Bastion's Keep. Portals do not work like they do in WoW. They're basically hearthstones.

And the soldiers were low on weapons and food already. If they had the ability to restock at any time, why didn't they?

06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
He didn't do both at the same time though..... if he had the keep would have likely fallen (it was pretty screwed from above before we showed up to fix things, and the basement would absolutely have fallen without us.


Actually he did. If you pay attention to the Mayor's comments, he mentions a foul smell coming from the larder. This signals that Ghom actually was in the keep long, long before you even light the signal fires. Which means that while you were defending the ramparts, the demons were flooding the bottom 90% of the keep, killing everyone in there.

06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
I don't know that this is exactly a tactic.


Employing siege weaponry is still a tactic, even if it is a basic one.

06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
Ok, this is fair, but it's not exactly an advanced tactic that only a tactical mastermind could pull off, it's kind of war 101.


The argument is that Azmodan uses one tactic. He uses multiple, some are simple but that isn't what is being argued.

06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
This is flat out wrong, he actively ruined every chance at surprise he had by constantly informing us of his plans. I mean, he even tells is that he has minions coming in through the basement....


He surpised the keep before you even got there. Azmodan slaughtered 700 out of 1000 soldiers almost instantly because he managed to ambush the keep right out of Arreat. This means that the keep had to send away from reinforcements and even if they got them, they would've been too late.

06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
This isn't really true due to any special tactics he employed however, it is perhaps part of his overall straggly (turtleing I suppose), but it's not really a tactic.


He set up a gate that required an Archangel to smash open. Meanwhile he had practically unlimited numbers.

So he has constantly spawning troops and no way to stop them. Its attrition, which is in itself a tactic.

06/15/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Varjo
Let's face it. It's true that he uses more than 1 tactic, but he doesn't use very many and they almost all suck. Pretty disappointing from the "master tactician" of hell.


They suck because you obviously don't pay attention to what goes on in game.
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[sarcasm]He is such a great tactician we actually don't see him being a great tactician and need it explained to us! Clever bastard! :) [/sarcasm]

Just a couple of questions/remarks for your points. Do whatever you want with them.

Where in this game have you seen that Azmodan actively intended for the soulstone to be brought to Arreat? The very first orders from him you find mention that he wants the keep to be taken a.s.a.p so he can continue to TAKE ON THE WORLD (to retrieve the black soulstone wherever it's hidden as he mentions to Leah in the cutscene just before). No mention of obtaining a soulstone or nothing. While the second orders you find mention that the hero that killed Belial has suddenly arrived. Only in later orders he talks about a black soulstone. Ergo: he didn't know you were going to be there and assumes your presence won't change his plan in the least.

Gom could never have been in that larder for very long, as he just entered it after the fortifications have been breached down below and demons were pouring in quite rapidly. If he expected to be able to take the keep, why go through the extra effort of dumping Gom in there? Or did Gom bust in the keep and set his fat !@#$ down in the keep to stuff himself with everything he could find down there instead of actually taking the keep like he was supposed to?

Edit: Gom wasn't stuck down there, like the poster below me suggests. He could have easily reached the top level, especially since the larder entrance is just as big as any other doorway in Bastion keep. Even simple tremor demons can burst down doorways to pass them. I imagine the guy who breached into the keep wouldn't be stopped by a simple door.

It is never directly stated anywhere in game that only an archangel could smash that iron gate. Tyreal just says that he can do it, not that he is the only one with the power to do so. Using this as a claim of Azmodan's genius giving him unlimited time is quite a stretch, especially since it's never mentioned by books, Tyreal or mr. Monologue himself.

Edit: Even if it's a "demonic seal" like the poster below me states, we are constantly destroying very similar things ourselves without angelic assistance during various parts of the story, like the seals around the Sin Hearts or the Oculus rifts in Heaven. There is no reason that seal would be any different from other obstacles we have encountered.

My most important annoyance with Azomodan is that if he wasn't so happy with proclaiming that he's in our base killing our d00dz, whining about how he didn't really need that thing he was just bragging about and let the events play out for themselves like a true chess master he would come out a lot better than he does now.

Goes for this whole story really, what's so hard about showing instead of telling?
Edited by hayate666#1814 on 6/16/2012 6:27 PM PDT
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I looked at the scenes/logs in question and found the following:

-He talks about seizing the keep and its commander and basically tells his guys to not goof off. We don't really know when he sent the missive, but we do know that Tyrael has taken command of the troops at Bastion's keep (and the soldiers know he's an angel). This is before we have access to any of the logs. Fitting the 2nd part of his missive might just be too much info dump for one log.

-Ghom's fat (AND slow). It would take awhile to bust through those doorways and climb all the way up to the keep. Also when you put it that way, you make it sound like zerging the keep without any other contingency plan is a good idea. And not only are there several basement levels, but we can probably infer from all the bodies down there that they've been busy slaughtering the soldiers down there. (assume that your hero doesn't go back until they've lit the signal fires and raised the catapults after which they are immediately attacked by the underground forces)

-It's a demonic seal on the gate the Eldruin destroys and Bastion's keep seems to be lacking in sorcerers.

-Azmodan is really annoying yeah. It doesn't actually harm his plans in any way but I don't think anyone is going to argue that they went overboard with the whole "Muahahahaha! I've got you now my pretties!" spiel.

Edit for poster above:
Sure we're destroying things like the Sin Hearts and Oculus Rifts. The Sin Hearts seem to be fairly organic and are only destructible when the ones that shield the Hearts (Cydaea and her succubi) die. The Oculus Rifts come at a point where the player character is awakening into their full Nephalem powers and to be honest, Diablo never stated the reason why we wouldn't be able to destroy the rifts. He could have been counting on his hordes of minions like all the other lords of evil (derp).

Also, don't forget the patches of corruption in the heavens. We can't blow those up until Auriel empowers us.

I mean, really think about it. We need Leah casting Disintegrate (With the diablospawn rune) to blow up the gates on our way to Belial and it actually takes a lot out of her. This includes the gate that was made up only of iron bars. (Tyrael was busy... not getting noticed maybe? Well, the fact that he doesn't DO anything is a problem with this Act, but the point still stands.)
Edited by SparkDragon#1176 on 6/20/2012 11:17 AM PDT
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If he's such a tactical genius, why is he basically explaining every of his moves and then going 'didn't need that anyways' when it fails?

Do you see Kasparov explaining his every chess move? Hellmuth in a WSOP final?
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
06/16/2012 05:13 PMPosted by SparkDragon
-Azmodan is really annoying yeah. It doesn't actually harm his plans in any way but I don't think anyone is going to argue that they went overboard with the whole "Muahahahaha! I've got you now my pretties!" spiel.


This. I think everyone got annoyed and he popped up one or two times too many. But it makes sense, given he's Pride incarnate, and it didn't set him back much at all.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Posts: 13,320
If he's such a tactical genius, why is he basically explaining every of his moves and then going 'didn't need that anyways' when it fails?

Do you see Kasparov explaining his every chess move? Hellmuth in a WSOP final?


First, he's prideful.

But second, the way he was set up he couldn't lose. It took the intervention of an Archangel, something he couldn't have predicted, to stop him. The guy could gloat all he wanted because he was right, he didn't need any of his siege weapons or Ghom after he finished his job.

If Tyrael wasn't there, you'd have lost. It was a no-win situation. He would've won eventually, just by wearing down the defenses of the keep.
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There's being a prideful tactician and there's being a moron about it. If I had to think about a real life tactician I see as being somewhat too prideful for his own good it would be someone like Patton. That's because of how he interacted with his own soldiers. But he didn't wire his plans straight to Hitler.

Secondly, how was Tyreal's intervention necessary? I posed that question in my other post in this topic. What did he do what the hero couldn't possibly do himself that's actually mentioned in the game?
Edited by hayate666#1814 on 6/18/2012 6:55 AM PDT
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As a master tactician I would have gathered several groups of champs and elites with nice affixes like mortar molten vortex firechains jailor and send them to pierce the defense and camp the heroes at the spawn point in town until they QQ and uninstall the game.

Instead, he spread out his whole army so that we can go mob picking all the way up to him.

Sun Tzu just had a heart attack in his tomb...
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