Diablo® III

Azmodan the tactical genius....



Secondly, how was Tyreal's intervention necessary? I posed that question in my other post in this topic. What did he do what the hero couldn't possibly do himself that's actually mentioned in the game?


This.

Isn't the hero a nephalem? Stronger than any demon and angel? Even stronger than the PRIME evil? Imperius got his !@# kicked by Diablo-Prime evil. And you kick Diablo's $%^.

Tyrael opened a door for you with his sword. So what? The nephalem should have been able to fart and open it too.
Reply Quote
06/14/2012 05:00 PMPosted by Melyria
only has 1 tactic.


He baited you into bringing the soulstone to Arreat. So one tactic is using himself as bait.

He spoiled the food stores of Bastion Keep. So that is the tactic of controlling resources.

He attacked from below as well as above. The tactic of the Pincer Movement.

He employed siege weaponry.

He employed superior numbers.

He employed the element of surprise.

He set up an impressive defense.

He uses more than one tactic. He uses several at once. Just because you've over simplified it doesn't make it true.

Or he just threw everything he had at you, all at once, without warning.

Thus:

So many troops incoming = they can't all go the same way = automatic pincer, some hit above some hit below simply because they couldn't all go above.

The glutton was one of his forces as part of everything he threw at you, the food was spoiled as a lucky side effect of this. Note the glutton is a ground pounder, he wasn't coming over the walls no matter what Azmodan did.

Siege weaponry is part of "everything".

Element of surprise is part of "everything at once without warning", just a side effect of it.

Superior numbers is part of "everything".

For the soulstone he didn't bait you at all, you brought it there because you were coming to wherever he was. He could have stayed in hell with all the forces gathered around to crush you when you tried to penetrate to capture him, but instead he spread his forces waaaaay out in an attempt to take a keep that had no inherent value until you showed up with the soulstone. Basically, he was attacking the keep in order to spread to the entire world and you bringing the soulstone there was part of your task, not something he created.

His defense consisted of his army going out of hell while in the process of throwing everything at you, he had no actual defenses.

So, he only has one tactic:

Throw everything he has at you all at once with no warning.

He sticks to that right up until you kill him, with the ruins of his sole tactic lying broken all around him (Note how small the forces you face in hell are, the remnants that didn't muster in time to march on Bastion's Keep. No longer an impressive army. No longer a force able to mount a defense. Not a tactical decision.)
Reply Quote
73 Blood Elf Rogue
1010
Guys he hid behind an invincible demonic door which no amount of force could destroy or get past it.

invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
Reply Quote
First, he's prideful.

But second, the way he was set up he couldn't lose. It took the intervention of an Archangel, something he couldn't have predicted, to stop him. The guy could gloat all he wanted because he was right, he didn't need any of his siege weapons or Ghom after he finished his job.

If Tyrael wasn't there, you'd have lost. It was a no-win situation. He would've won eventually, just by wearing down the defenses of the keep.


The way he was set up he couldn't lose? Do you know how many wars are lost because one side believes itself to be indestructible, or insurmountable? Have you ever heard of the battle of Thermopylae?

It doesn't matter how prideful he is. It wouldn't even matter if he had a literal 100% chance to win the battle. If you are truly a master tactician, you don't go about telling people of your plan. Whether or not you think the enemy has the resources to beat you or not is irrelevant. There is simply no tactic in telling your enemy all your tactics, unless of course your tactic is to feed them misinformation (Of which our master tactician did none).

In war, there is always the chance that the enemy has something you simply do not know about. Hence, you don't go telling them your every tactic. In fact, misinformation is a major tactic used throughout wars. One of the best ways to beat an enemy is to make the enemy underestimate you, so that when push comes to shove you yourself have the upper hand. In war, you cannot believe everything you think to be true. You must always be cautious, because the enemy could always have an ace up their sleeve. That our master tactician wouldn't take any of this into account speaks quite highly of his actual tactical prowess.

A true 'master tactician' doesn't underestimate his enemies, no matter how weak or powerful he believes them to be. A master tactician does not declare victory until the victory is actually, truly won.
Edited by Darkgan#1529 on 6/18/2012 1:24 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/18/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Darkgan
The way he was set up he couldn't lose? Do you know how many wars are lost because one side believes itself to be indestructible, or insurmountable? Have you ever heard of the battle of Thermopylae?


You're aware that the Persians won the battle of Thermopoylae and then proceeded to steamroll through a good chunk of Greece, right?

06/18/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Darkgan
It doesn't matter how prideful he is. It wouldn't even matter if he had a literal 100% chance to win the battle. If you are truly a master tactician, you don't go about telling people of your plan. Whether or not you think the enemy has the resources to beat you or not is irrelevant. There is simply no tactic in telling your enemy all your tactics, unless of course your tactic is to feed them misinformation (Of which our master tactician did none).


Actually, it would be an act of demoralization.

And Azmodan is pride incarnate. He is going to brag, it is who he is. And lets be honest, he was in a situation where he was, frankly, in the position to boast. The guy literally had no way of losing.

06/18/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Darkgan
In war, there is always the chance that the enemy has something you simply do not know about.


You're right. Except in this case what the enemy had was the only thing possible to break through his Hellgate AND it was impossible for him to be there. Angels have never shed their immortality before. Angels were sworn to non-engagement on Sanctuary.

The one thing that could've broken down that gate it was impossible for the enemy to have, beyond all logical thought. This is literally like if we invaded some dirt poor country and suddenly they had a legion of guys in Iron Man armor, even though it would be impossibe for those to exist.

06/18/2012 01:10 PMPosted by Darkgan
A true 'master tactician' doesn't underestimate his enemies, no matter how weak or powerful he believes them to be. A master tactician does not declare victory until the victory is actually, truly won.


So you want the Lord of Sin to not be prideful?

Or do you want him to just beat the snot out of us and win, taking the soulstone for himself and us getting a game over to show how good he is? Azmodan had to lose and so he had to have mistakes to exploit for us to do so. Being pride incarnate, his ego was the way we won.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/18/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Doiriann
1. there's no tactical genius behind having an allegedly invincible door and hiding behind it.


Neither is setting up an ambush, apparently. Preparation is actually a key part of playing chess.

06/18/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Doiriann
2. it's still not good or compelling writing that he should have an invincible door in the first place. Since when does hell have invincible door technology? Why has this invincible door technology never been deployed before? It seems like it should be a rather important plot point as an invincible door would be rather useful.


When could it have been employed? If Helldoors exist in Hell, we could have only seen it in Act 4 of Diablo 2. That's a major plotpoint of Act 3 in D3, that Azmodan is merging Hell and Sanctuary together at Arreat Crater, that's why he's capable of bringing the Sin Hearts into the world to empower his forces.

Instead, the invincible door technology is not treated as anything special. It's not treated as though the invincible door technology was the underpinning of Azmodan's plans and the reason he spent so much time yammering on self-defeatingly. On the contrary, it appears that Tyrael opens it not because it has any kind of bearing on the plot at all, but because Diablo 3 is filled with random doors that NPCs have to open for the player and Blizzard felt like it would be a cool way to have the door opened.


Heaven forbid they made Tyrael do something and be useful.

06/18/2012 02:25 PMPosted by Doiriann
Though on a related note, I will say the amount of energy spent pushing the invincible-door-is-the-basis-of-Azmodan's-plan fanfic is extremely humorous.


As is the amount of effort some are putting into trying to disprove it, among other things. Heck, one could say it is entirely humorous that any of us are wasting time posting on this forum at all. I mean, you've posted an awful lot on your Ling account.
Reply Quote
06/18/2012 02:14 PMPosted by Melyria
So you want the Lord of Sin to not be prideful?

If he's going to be prideful, he should also be lustful, greedy, slothful, envious, wrathful, and gluttonous (Wow, I'm all over the place with those. That's kinda awesome). I don't know about you, but I didn't see many of those coming out very strongly in him.

"Sin" is such a vague term, but if you're gonna go with vague it doesn't mean you just get to pick one you want to emphasize, you'd have to have them all.

Edit: Also, "best tactician" means "not stupid enough to announce his plans to the enemy" no matter how prideful he is. He can brag about it to Cydaea if he wants.
Edited by Bianary#1174 on 6/18/2012 3:57 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/18/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Bianary
lustful,


Have you seen the legs on his prime consort? All 8 of them?

06/18/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Bianary
greedy,


... He wants to become the prime evil? The master of everything?

06/18/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Bianary
slothful,


-points to Azmodan's gut-

06/18/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Bianary
gluttonous (


-Azmodan's gut again-

06/18/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Bianary
envious,


Again, wants to become the Prime Evil.

06/18/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Bianary
wrathful,


Listen to his conversations with you after you enter the crater. He ceases boasting and pretty much starts threatening at you.

Also, "best tactician" means "not stupid enough to announce his plans to the enemy" no matter how prideful he is. He can brag about it to Cydaea if he wants.


Best tactician in hell means comes up with the best plans and impliments them. However the other Evils were always there with him, leading the actual armies. Azmodan is alone this time. He's without balance, so to speak.

Heck, its a major plot point that the Evils undo themselves at any given turn because of their nature.
Edited by Melyria#1246 on 6/18/2012 4:00 PM PDT
Reply Quote
The stronghold was feeble compared to Azmodan's enormous armies. He did not require any tactics to conquer it. What I don't understand is why he didn't utilize any tactics against the one guy who actually posed a threat to him (the hero). The only forces we really encounter in that chapter are the guys who are sieging the keep, the guys defending the siege weapons, the guys guarding the hearts, and Azmodan's personal guards. He doesn't send anything after us directly.

It would have been brilliant if the trebouchet was a trap- when we go to destroy it, the walls rise up around us and we're assaulted from every side by demons who were prepared for our arrival. I wonder if he even told Ghom the hero was coming. "Oh hey, I know your assault on the lower portion of the keep is going well and all, but listen... you know that guy slaughtering thousands of us? I told him where you are, so get ready for an !@#-kicking."
Edited by Yinnyth#1604 on 6/18/2012 4:27 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
The only forces we really encounter in that chapter are the guys who are sieging the keep, the guys defending the siege weapons, the guys guarding the hearts, and Azmodan's personal guards. He doesn't send anything after us directly.


That's not true. Orders from Azmodan... 4? Specifically says he calls Cydaea and her Succubi to deal with the hero.

It would have been brilliant if the trebouchet was a trap- when we go to destroy it, the walls rise up around us and we're assaulted from every side by demons who were prepared for our arrival. I wonder if he even told Ghom the hero was coming. "Oh hey, I know your assault on the lower portion of the keep is going well and all, but listen... you know that guy slaughtering thousands of us? I told him where you are, so get ready for an !@#-kicking."


Maybe, maybe not. Ghom kinda did his job and was expendable at that point though. Though the Book of Cain claims Azmodan has a relatively good relationship with all of his lieutenants, so maybe he did warn him.

Edit: Just checked. Ghom knows who you are so presumably Azmodan did let him know.
Edited by Melyria#1246 on 6/18/2012 4:32 PM PDT
Reply Quote
06/18/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Melyria
That's not true. Orders from Azmodan... 4? Specifically says he calls Cydaea and her Succubi to deal with the hero.


I sort of assumed she lived in those towers. Those giants are her torture victims, no? So if he's not just being condescending in his orders (it's 6, btw) and he literally means come from hell, guard the hearts, kill the hero, then what did he have guarding the hearts before...?
Reply Quote
That's not true. Orders from Azmodan... 4? Specifically says he calls Cydaea and her Succubi to deal with the hero.


I sort of assumed she lived in those towers. Those giants are her torture victims, no? So if he's not just being condescending in his orders (it's 6, btw) and he literally means come from hell, guard the hearts, kill the hero, then what did he have guarding the hearts before...?

Why are we killing the hearts anyway, his army is already crushed.

It's not just "because they're on the way", supposedly they are our targets before Azmodan, and they're powering his army.

Chop off the head of the snake and all that, why waste time hacking at its already shredded body?
Edited by Bianary#1174 on 6/18/2012 5:01 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/18/2012 04:56 PMPosted by Yinnyth
That's not true. Orders from Azmodan... 4? Specifically says he calls Cydaea and her Succubi to deal with the hero.


I sort of assumed she lived in those towers. Those giants are her torture victims, no? So if he's not just being condescending in his orders (it's 6, btw) and he literally means come from hell, guard the hearts, kill the hero, then what did he have guarding the hearts before...?


Why did he need somebody special to guard the hearts when he had them behind an unbreakable hellgate?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/18/2012 05:01 PMPosted by Bianary
Why are we killing the hearts anyway, his army is already crushed.


... Azmodan specifically says his armies are constantly pouring into Sanctuary. It doesn't matter if you crushed his first wave, he had practically an infinite number of waves after it.

06/18/2012 05:01 PMPosted by Bianary
It's not just "because they're on the way", supposedly they are our targets before Azmodan, and they're powering his army.


Wouldn't it make sense to take out the Sin Hearts to weaken any soldiers on or soon to be on the battlefield? You didn't clear every single demon out of Arreat.
Reply Quote
Firstly, apologies if I sounded snarky. My intent isn't argument, but discussion. We're all entitled to believe whatever we want to believe, and there's nothing wrong with that. That said, here are my issues with things as they are.

The whole thing is very deus ex machina, and it feels contrived (to me, personally). The two things that absolutely MUST happen for us to win, are two things our characters can never change. Firstly, Tyrael must fall from the sky. Do our characters influence this at all? Nope, it just happens because it can. God within the machine and all that. Secondly, Azmodan has to tell us where to go, and what to kill. Again, do our characters actually have to figure out his clever plots? Nope, not at all.

When you combine these two elements, it makes for one very unbelievable third act. Not only do we require a deus ex machina, but we also require that the master tactician tell us exactly what to do to defeat him.

Here's the thing, though. If he's trying to demoralize us, why doesn't he just poke fun at us? That would humiliate us without risking his entire plan in any sort of manner. To me, that's the sort of thing an arrogant master tactician does. He pokes fun, he demoralizes, but he never does so at the expense of his own tactics. Azmodan, though, tells us exactly what we need to do to kill him, and not all at once, or in one 'oopsie I'm too arrogant for my own good' moment. No, he tells us in STEPS. "Oh ho ho, you've beaten my X, but you'll never beat my Y!"

If you're so arrogant that you don't back off after making one arrogant 'oopsie', then you're not very tactical. You're arrogant first, tactical second, and I just don't see that particular combination being a master tactician. To me, a master tactician is someone that puts tactics first. Each time, every time. He might make minor mistakes because of pride, but he will never divulge the entirety of his plot for essentially no reason.

Another point. Even if we don't have the means to defeat Azmodan, what kind of brilliant tactician is going to put more of his forces in harms way, purely for reasons of "YOU CAN'T BEAT ME. NYAH NYAH."? A brilliant tactician would not only be seeking victory, but victory at the lowest resource cost.

Furthermore, as to the demoralization, it actually works against him. It would only be demoralizing if the hero didn't succeed. The hero does succeed, and hence the entire thing would actually give them morale. Azmodan, in his infinite wisdom, decides to try the exact same thing again, instead of changing up his plans. What brilliant tactician loses one battle, and starts the next battle in the exact same manner? If you played rock paper scissors with Azmodan, he'd simply yell out ROCK each and every time. He doesn't adapt, because he is a slave to his arrogance. That's fine and dandy, but don't then call him a master tactician. A master tactician can't be a slave to a flaw that would literally prevent him from ever becoming a master tactician in the first place. It makes no sense.

This is literally like if we invaded some dirt poor country and suddenly they had a legion of guys in Iron Man armor, even though it would be impossibe for those to exist.


Yes, but despite that the iron man armor doesn't exist, are we telling this third world country all of our military secrets? That's where the unbelievable comes into play. Again, even if he was certain he would win, a master tactician wouldn't tell the enemy his every move. There are far better ways to insult the enemy (Satisfying his pride) and simultaneously protect his tactical advantage.

I think it comes down to a problem of characterization. When you build a character, you have to do so in a believable manner. Certain traits do not mix well together, and hence create an unbelievable character. Someone with so much arrogance -- Arrogance to the point where he literally stops thinking about tactics -- Is simply not going to be believable as a master tactician. If he were only arrogant to a point, and if his arrogance only gave us a slight advantage, it would make sense. But when he's so arrogant that he tells us every single thing we need to do to defeat him... Well, for me at least, that's gone beyond any semblance of believability. This isn't to say it wasn't believable for you. Perhaps it was. But for me, I found it entirely unbelievable.
Reply Quote
06/18/2012 05:15 PMPosted by Melyria
Why did he need somebody special to guard the hearts when he had them behind an unbreakable hellgate?


Why would an unsinkable boat need life rafts? Sometimes people make claims they should not make. Though to be fair, those phasebeasts put up a good fight on their own.
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/18/2012 05:29 PMPosted by Yinnyth
Why would an unsinkable boat need life rafts?


er... that was an issue. They didn't have enough.

Also, all those demons between you and the hearts should've been sign that there was a guard, just not any big bad boss.
Reply Quote
Guys he hid behind an invincible demonic door which no amount of force could destroy or get past it.

invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there
invincible demonic door Azmodan won if tyrael wasn't there


I don't believe it was mentioned it to be Invincible, nor only breakable by an Angel's sword.
Also, it would need to open at some time anyway. You could just slip in or slaughter anyone near the gate and then slip in!
Reply Quote
@ Darkgan: you sum up my Azomodan related issues with this act rather nicely.

Now we just need a topic about why Adria, Tyreal and Leah fail as characters in this act :)
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]