Diablo® III

Azmodan the tactical genius....

FWIW, the concept of the "invincible" door is a stretch to begin with, For all we know, it wasn't invincible, but it's not like the Player Character carried Siege equipment in his travel bag. Tyreal's action with his sword to break it open is simply a plot device to allow the player to move past quicker, then watching a cinematic of them stumbling back to Bastion's keep, lugging out ram then powering down the door. I see nothing within the narrative that establishes the door as "invicible" any more then any other door. The fact it was quickly dispatched would lend credibility that it wasn't in-fact "invincible", more like the Humans never really work expected to be able to reach it.

I have never once reviewed military doctrine that elevated the use of a locked door to a military tactic either which it seems this discussion after a brief read is implying, not sure if anyone really is making that case either.

The primary issue with the concept of Azmodan Military prowess is the fact that there simply was not room in the game to explore a true siege. Frankly, having a group of four players taking different sections in a "Helm's Deep" scenario would be a lot of fun, with the siege weapons and siege breaker demons showing up to handle every now and then. A timed sequence would have been welcome for me as it would have fleshed out Act 3 a bit more, especially if it ended up being a decent farming quest. What ended up of the siege was light some fires, help others raise the catapults. So the sense of awe of a siege is nearly completely lost. The story in and of itself has a lot of room to be fleshed out and quite good, it was just executed so poorly it undermined it's own premise of the main antagonist of Act 3.

Azmodan telling you he broke in underneath the keep was no necessary at all, a guard could have come running and informed you that demons have breached the base, you must hurry and accomplished the same thing and Azmodam would have been less obnoxious.
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06/18/2012 07:48 PMPosted by Hawkeye
Azmodan telling you he broke in underneath the keep was no necessary at all, a guard could have come running and informed you that demons have breached the base, you must hurry and accomplished the same thing and Azmodam would have been less obnoxious.

And in fact, did. As soon as Azmodan says that you get the small squad of demons running in, soldiers screaming about the keep being breached, and you're left wondering why Azmodan felt it necessary to come tell you what you already knew.
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06/18/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Bianary
And in fact, did. As soon as Azmodan says that you get the small squad of demons running in, soldiers screaming about the keep being breached, and you're left wondering why Azmodan felt it necessary to come tell you what you already knew.


They wanted to give Azmodan face time.
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Just @ earlier posts... Tyrael is sort of useful... in that he rallied the troops and organized a proper defence which allowed the hero to actually leave the keep and take the fight to Azz instead of sprinting from one end of the keep to the other fighting of breaching parties.
One of the soldiers actually comments on how invaluable "the angel" is... which leads to the conclusion that blizzard actually knew what a **** char tyrael was prior to act 3 and after.

And Azz would of won if he had concentrated his forces. Simple as that. Imagine the giant seigebeasts (forgot the name, the ones that climb walls and regurgitate minions) from the entire act grouped up in one 50m section of the wall with the areal units divebombing. Or maybe even having soul lashers come out of the seigebeasts... Should he have done that and secured a beachhead then it would of been a simple matter of sending a strike force down to kill the general (tyrael) and demoralizing the remaining troops. Basically the game just made it easy so that it would be possible to win.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/18/2012 10:13 PMPosted by Bianary
Azmodan telling you he broke in underneath the keep was no necessary at all, a guard could have come running and informed you that demons have breached the base, you must hurry and accomplished the same thing and Azmodam would have been less obnoxious.

And in fact, did. As soon as Azmodan says that you get the small squad of demons running in, soldiers screaming about the keep being breached, and you're left wondering why Azmodan felt it necessary to come tell you what you already knew.


What is the point of gloating if the people you're fighting are dead?

He basically did the same as a lot of villains do. Told you on the PA system that you're going to die and he's won, just as the gates open showing a hundred soldiers walk in, guns aimed at your head.

He really thought that there was no way for you to win against them because the demons were flooding into that room at that moment.
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If he's such a tactical genius, why is he basically explaining every of his moves and then going 'didn't need that anyways' when it fails?

Do you see Kasparov explaining his every chess move? Hellmuth in a WSOP final?


People keep referring to Azmodan "explain his plans". At which point did Azmodan actually spoiled his plans?

1. After the signal fire quest, he merely taunted you. This is your standard nemesis introduction.
2. After the catapult quest, he did say that his force has breached the keep, but remember, this is when the demons already reached the top levels of the keep. The soldiers even commented that if the hero haven't made back just in time, they would have all died. At this point, there is absolute no need for Azmodan to keep the fact he is attack the bottom of the keep a secret.
3. After kill Ghom, Azmodan merely comes and taunt you again. Made no mention on any of his plans.
4. After destroying his siege weapons, he comes again to taunt you. Making no mention of his plans.
5. After Cydea show up, Azmodan says that his concubine will destroy you. What exact did this conversation reveal that we don't already know? That Cydea is Azmodan's concubine?

To be honest, Azmodan's plan is pretty good. The only reason it didn't work is because the hero is just too powerful.
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I do have to wonder why the Tactical Genius brought his siege engines up after the assault on the Keep.
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You didn't see all that catapult fire while you were raising your own catapults and lighting signal fires? Yes, those random meteors weren't just random meteors, they're catapult fire with a warning signal so that you can actually dodge them because of the top down perspective you're forced into.

In fact, he's got more catapults JUST to deal with you on Rakkis crossing with pin point precision too! You know that lieutenant that the scout wants you to find in a random quest? It scores a bullseye on him! That's not even counting the "It's hopeless!" segment (all soldiers proceed to get picked off by very, very accurate catapult fire.)
Edited by SparkDragon#1176 on 6/20/2012 11:30 AM PDT
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i think he has proved himself as a tactician he used alot of good strategies he even fooled the lord of lies into being bait
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The next time you guys are walking through the first two quests in Act 3... keep a look out for:

1. Boiling Oil Cauldrons on both sides of the wall.
2. Fighting taking place on both sides of the wall.
3. The quaint village housing down outside the keep. That doesn't appear when you exit.

And later on:

All the troops / ramparts outside the wall. Yes, this is explained as some insane Captain led a charge out of the keep, to be stranded and massacred...but WHY? And is there no one ranking officer for the keep itself? Armies are typically not led by committee. Colonel? General? Somebody?

He didn't need to be a tactical genius. The place was pretty messed up before he got there.
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>Inferno is the most realistic difficulty (one hit from a 20 foot monster wielding a massive club insta kill a human is pretty realistic)

> In inferno for every Azmodan kill there is at least 1000 deaths (Soft core and Hardcore)

> Ratio: 1:1000 in favor of Azmodan*

> Azmodan: a great tactician, odds are hugely in his favor.

/thread.

* is not an exact number, but just to give you Idea.
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He uses taunts... like almost every boss in this game does just to get face time. Leoric does it as a ghost, the Butcher doesn't thank heavens!!!, Maghda does it over and over, BadLiar, i mean Belial does it as a kid even though it's pretty obvious even for the great nephalem that he is Belial, Azmodan, the master tactician does it far too many times, Cyndaea does it too and she is the only one that was supposed to do it, but by that point it's already tiresome, and to make it definitive, even Diablo himself can't help but do it.

As someone else pointed out, another flaw is that characters never learn.

- Maghda laughs over and over about the nephalem's inability almost up to her death.

- Belial plays his games even though no one is really falling for it, and really goes off character as a master deciever with a frontal attack of the city. That is just off character and doesn't mean he learned that deceiving doesn't work, because his change didn't really worked. Nothing he did worked.

- Azmodan... he is only the master tactician because Caine says it. Immagine trying to work in the idea that Gollum was a sane genius in the LOTR plot. You see him as insane, animalistic, and pretty simple minded in acts and desires, but you have to try and make yourself believe he's all right because someone relevant said so. That just doesn't work. Azmodan is clearly not a master tactician, and just hiding behind one of his sins doesn't make for a good explanation. Just say that he is prideful before all and that he has a great army at his command. That would have worked perfectly for the way the story played out.

-Diablo. Apart from the really really awkward change in design, i get that they are trying to put in Leah's features... !? Why? I did not remember Diablo having the #!** and balls of the wanderer after he transformed in front of his brothers. Why did we see Diablo tities in this game? Why is a red queen from the movie Alien in this game? Why does Diablo speak telepathically to us along the way?

All the points before are meant to show what Blizz went for. Face time. And in my opinion it was a mistake. The flavor of D2 was that you didn't get to see the great evil masterminds at work and only sort of stumbled into their lairs. All you had were some awesome cutscenes in which some scary demons did their thing. Now it's all about facetime. We will put all our baddies in your face whether you like it or not. Also we will tell you what these baddies are like, and you have to go with it even though when analyzed they don't really stand up to their make believe reputations.
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Any fool with an invincible door would be hard to beat, but that doesn't make them a tactical genius. Tactical genius implies someone who actually has to use their brain to win battles.

Bad story writing, period. You can try to defend it all you want, but the plot is still lame.
Edited by Leary#1144 on 6/22/2012 10:46 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/22/2012 10:36 PMPosted by Leary
Tactical genius implies someone who actually has to use their brain to win battles.


So you're ignoring the infiltrating of the enemy base. And the spoiling of the food. And the baiting the soulstone to Arreat. And to siege weaponry.

Azmodan didn't need to be a tactical genius. Just like how the greatest general in the world doesn't need to use his tactics to gas a termite mound. And yet, Azmodan still employed special tactics to make his victory easier.
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I'd like to ask just one thing. If Azmodan's plan wasn't good, then what would good tactics look like? I'm one of those folk who know next to nothing about military anything, so I'm honestly just curious.
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06/23/2012 10:07 AMPosted by MezzoParody
I'd like to ask just one thing. If Azmodan's plan wasn't good, then what would good tactics look like? I'm one of those folk who know next to nothing about military anything, so I'm honestly just curious.


"Make your diversion seem like your main attack, and make your main attack seem like the diversion." -Sun Tzu

Good tactics (as well as an improvement on the story) would've been this:

After you accuse Emperor Hakan of being Belial and kill the little kid, and realize that he wasn't Belial he was just another little kid emperor, then an image of Belial pops up and says "Next time, don't underestimate me. Also, i'm throwing a party at Arreat Crater. See you there."

Images of Belial keep popping up and telling you about his underground siege, and his catapults, and his sin hearts. After you make it to the center of the crater and fight Belial to the death, Tyrael rushes in to inform you that you didn't just kill Belial and he was actually attacking Heaven while he kept you busy by telling you his plans.

After you destroy the second Hell Rift, Tyreal runs up to you and yells at you for wasting time when Belial is almost to the Crystal Arch. "No, he's lying, he's stalling you. Don't worry about his Hell Rifts." And, because it's a game, you finally catch up to the real Belial at the Crystal Arch, and beat him.
Edited by LittleDisco#1482 on 6/23/2012 6:08 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
Except we're not talking about Belial, we're talking about Azmodan, who is distinctly less deceitful and more powerful than his brother.
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06/23/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Melyria
Except we're not talking about Belial, we're talking about Azmodan, who is distinctly less deceitful and more powerful than his brother.


They should have just cast Belial as the tactician (after all I'd expect the Lord of Lies' tactics to be second only to the Lord of Terror or the Lord of Destruction, if they are second), and be mum on what Azmodan can do...you know, for the expansion.

If you ask me, this should've been Belial's game. I mean, yes, kill him at the end, but have him torment the player beginning to end. I'd put Maghda 2nd to last from Belial (that would justify her as a character, but she needs different artwork), and have her do more--that way, the player has an overall objective from the moment they say "I'd like to kill a Lord of Hell," when the rest of the game is trying to do exactly that. So, when they finally reach Maghda and then Belial they're thinking to themselves, "this is it--it's been all building up to this."

So...to your question about Azmodan...him, Belial, and Diablo should've been combined to form a new character called Belial.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
06/23/2012 07:52 PMPosted by LittleDisco
So...to your question about Azmodan...him, Belial, and Diablo should've been combined to form a new character called Belial.


Which has no bearing on the fact that the thread is still about Azmodan and his role in Act 3. Your ideas about Belial don't work within the context of the thread.

They should have just cast Belial as the tactician (after all I'd expect the Lord of Lies' tactics to be second only to the Lord of Terror or the Lord of Destruction, if they are second), and be mum on what Azmodan can do...you know, for the expansion.


Diablo is said not to be a tactician, just beyond patient.

Baal was said to be a terrible tactician and relies almost entirely on salt/burn and scorched earth fighting. If you fight Baal, there is no tactics he uses, he simply destroys everything in his path.

Mephisto, Lord of Hatred, was said to be a tactician and potentially the general/leader of Hell's armies, as he has the skills to move people around has an inherent understanding of those he's fighting. However he's exceptionally short sighted, preferring to win the short game rather than the long one.

Belial, on the other hand, is such a liar that he will even lie to himself. While he plots and schemes, his plans are literally an Inception meets Death Note level of lies. We're talking about lies within lies within lies, fueling a completely separate lie that happens to be webbed together out of dozens of other lies. Belial just weaves such a level of deception that even he gets caught in it.
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