Diablo® III

Azmodan the tactical genius....

06/23/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Melyria
Which has no bearing on the fact that the thread is still about Azmodan and his role in Act 3. Your ideas about Belial don't work within the context of the thread.


I'm saying that Belial should have said everything Azmodan said, and that is relevant.

Diablo is said not to be a tactician, just beyond patient.

Baal was said to be a terrible tactician and relies almost entirely on salt/burn and scorched earth fighting. If you fight Baal, there is no tactics he uses, he simply destroys everything in his path.

Mephisto, Lord of Hatred, was said to be a tactician and potentially the general/leader of Hell's armies, as he has the skills to move people around has an inherent understanding of those he's fighting. However he's exceptionally short sighted, preferring to win the short game rather than the long one.


A story can be written in any number of ways. Abandon your ideas of canon. Yes, I'm proposing that your precious canon be rewritten in a more logical way. They way they wrote it is not the only way it can be written, and the way I'm proposing is not the only way it could be written.

You cannot bring up canon statements to prove me wrong when I'm arguing that canon itself it wrong. You can, however, bring up logical arguments to prove to me that my ideas are stupid.

Logic > Canon

Now, prove me stupid based on logic. Not canon: logic.

Belial, on the other hand, is such a liar that he will even lie to himself. While he plots and schemes, his plans are literally an Inception meets Death Note level of lies. We're talking about lies within lies within lies, fueling a completely separate lie that happens to be webbed together out of dozens of other lies. Belial just weaves such a level of deception that even he gets caught in it.


Just as the Lord of Terror cannot feel terror (he causes terror), the Lord of Lies cannot be lied to (he tells the lies). Try again.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
A story can be written in any number of ways. Abandon your ideas of canon. Yes, I'm proposing that your precious canon be rewritten in a more logical way. They way they wrote it is not the only way it can be written, and the way I'm proposing is not the only way it could be written.


And we could've rewritten the entire story from the ground up to permit whatever fanfictiony things we want. If we're going to discuss Azmodan in the thread it shouldn't be about how we rewrite the entire game to not include him, but rather write his appearance, contributions and ultimate experience into something better.

You cannot bring up canon statements to prove me wrong when I'm arguing that canon itself it wrong. You can, however, bring up logical arguments to prove to me that my ideas are stupid.


Claiming canon is wrong is illogical in and of itself. Diablo, Lord of Terror, is not a master tactician because within the scope of the universe, not created by you, he is not a master tactician.

It is illogical to try and force your own canon, your own 'logic' into a universe that operates by its own reality.

Canon exists because that is what is fact in that universe. Changing that canon is, at its core, irrational and illogical because you are suddenly no longer operating within the universe's perameters.

06/23/2012 08:34 PMPosted by LittleDisco
Logic > Canon


Except within the scope of the Diablo universe, logic is not what we take as logic.

In that universe, it is illogical to call Diablo a master tactician because he is simply not. Nor is Baal. And nor is Belial.

It is who they are. You trying to impose your own logic on them, when they do not operate on your own logic, is insanity.

Just as the Lord of Terror cannot feel terror (he causes terror), the Lord of Lies cannot be lied to (he tells the lies). Try again.


So you're claiming Baal cannot be destroyed? Because D2 pretty clearly flies in the face of that.

Or that Mephisto cannot hate? Because the Sin War trilogy clearly flies in the face of that.

Or that Azmodan can't experience or want Sin? Because that massive gutt and ego say otherwise, as does his prime consort.

Or Auriel can't feel hope, only instill it?

Or Duriel can't feel pain?

The Evils embody an aspect if evil. They are not immune to it. They are it. They are destruction. They are hatred. They are terror. And to be something, one usually experiences that something.

Belial lies to himself because he cannot stop himself. He is lies incarnate. And that means lies to himself too. The kind of lies you tell yourself. Those self serving, ego boosting lies.
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So, this thread establishes:

Invincible doors are hell's ace in the hole.

A master tactician, THE general of the essentially unkillable army of Hell, spills the beans because he's so overconfident and prideful that he simply can't see the danger.

WoW avatar'd people love the story as is.

Belial is a lie within a lie within a lie...

Our ideas of what makes a genius are a little varied.

pincer in the rear, full frontal assault.
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06/23/2012 08:50 PMPosted by Melyria
If we're going to discuss Azmodan in the thread it shouldn't be about how we rewrite the entire game to not include him, but rather write his appearance, contributions and ultimate experience into something better.


As I said...combine him, Belial, and Diablo into a new character, and call that character Belial.

Claiming canon is wrong is illogical in and of itself.

It is illogical to try and force your own canon, your own 'logic' into a universe that operates by its own reality.

Canon exists because that is what is fact in that universe. Changing that canon is, at its core, irrational and illogical because you are suddenly no longer operating within the universe's perameters.


Logic exists apart from all storytelling. That is how plot holes appear.

Any universe's logic must, at a minimum, be consistent with itself. Then, it must stand up to logical pressure when questioned about actions "why didn't character X do Y?" or "what is the reason that character X did Y?" And, if the actions taken by the characters don't even make sense given the universe's logic, then the story needs more work.

06/23/2012 08:34 PMPosted by LittleDisco
Logic > Canon

Except within the scope of the Diablo universe, logic is not what we take as logic.[/quote]

You are perhaps correct. Evil is dumb and arrogant, and Good is slightly less braindead, and just as arrogant.

In that universe, it is illogical to call Diablo a master tactician because he is simply not. Nor is Baal. And nor is Belial.


Appparently neither is Azmodan. Try again.

So you're claiming Baal cannot be destroyed? Because D2 pretty clearly flies in the face of that.


If we are to believe D2, then Diablo would've never been able to "manifest himself in this world again." Try again. More logic this time.

[So you're claiming that] that Mephisto cannot hate? ... Or that Azmodan can't experience or want Sin? ... Or Auriel can't feel hope, only instill it? Or Duriel can't feel pain?


Yes. Any questions?

So, this thread establishes:

Invincible doors are hell's ace in the hole.

A master tactician, THE general of the essentially unkillable army of Hell, spills the beans because he's so overconfident and prideful that he simply can't see the danger.

WoW avatar'd people love the story as is.

Belial is a lie within a lie within a lie...

Our ideas of what makes a genius are a little varied.

pincer in the rear, full frontal assault.


Yes, apparently it does.

Especially "WoW avatar'd people love the story as is."

Because apparenly they don't know what a story is.

Muradin Bronzebeard wasn't killed, he was only left for dead.
Illidan Stormrage wasn't killed, he was only left for dead.
Magtheridon wansn't killed, he was only left for dead.

They've been indoctrinated.
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Tactical genius implies someone who actually has to use their brain to win battles.


So you're ignoring the infiltrating of the enemy base. And the spoiling of the food. And the baiting the soulstone to Arreat. And to siege weaponry.

Azmodan didn't need to be a tactical genius. Just like how the greatest general in the world doesn't need to use his tactics to gas a termite mound. And yet, Azmodan still employed special tactics to make his victory easier.


Maybe he didn't need to be a tactical genius, but that's how he was described in the game by Deckard Cain's lore. And that was the OP's point of this thread, was it not? (Okay, he said he only had one tactic, but I think it's safe to say he was poking fun at Azmodan's supposed brilliance).

I don't mean to ignore it, and yes, I agree that those are tactics. Those are all very basic, generic, "war 101" tactics though, to use someone else's previous description. In the game he was described as "hell's most brilliant general," and a "genius, master tactician" (paraphrasing here). I just think it's melodramatic to describe him as such for the reasons I just mentioned.

Just because you use tactics doesn't make you a master at them. We're really grasping for straws here if "the use of siege weapons" is an example of brilliance. That's practically a given for any attack on a fortification. Same can be said for any of the other tactics he used.

You could argue that pride got the better of him, but that's, well... lame, unoriginal storywriting. Just my opinion of course, but I think the writers were on to something good with this "tactical genius" thing, and they could have come up with something better.
Edited by Leary#1144 on 6/24/2012 1:12 AM PDT
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It would have been brilliant if the trebouchet was a trap- when we go to destroy it, the walls rise up around us and we're assaulted from every side by demons who were prepared for our arrival. I wonder if he even told Ghom the hero was coming. "Oh hey, I know your assault on the lower portion of the keep is going well and all, but listen... you know that guy slaughtering thousands of us? I told him where you are, so get ready for an !@#-kicking."


Agreed wholeheartedly, and LOL'd at the last bit :-p
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06/18/2012 05:25 PMPosted by Darkgan
If you played rock paper scissors with Azmodan, he'd simply yell out ROCK each and every time.


I just pictured this actually happening and almost peed my pants laughing
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90 Night Elf Rogue
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Posts: 13,320
06/24/2012 12:39 AMPosted by Leary
I don't mean to ignore it, and yes, I agree that those are tactics. Those are all very basic, generic, "war 101" tactics though, to use someone else's previous description. In the game he was described as "hell's most brilliant general," and a "genius, master tactician" (paraphrasing here). I just think it's melodramatic to describe him as such for the reasons I just mentioned.


Just because we hear about something in game does not mean we need to see it. We hear there are multiple Butcher Demons but we don't see them.

I mean, Azmodan kinda set himself up for a win with that gate and he did use tactics. He may've not used astounding ones (aside from, what I'll argue was a good tactic, baiting the stoen to Arreat with himself) but that doesn't negate the fact that he may be a good tactician. After all, he was fighting inferior enemies and was in no place to lose.

I understand people were expecting the best tactics ever, but to give him no credit isn't fair, nor is not considering that this is a video game and if too advanced tactics were used, it'd be either confusion OR would require a deus ex machina to just give us a fighting chance.

06/24/2012 12:39 AMPosted by Leary
Just because you use tactics doesn't make you a master at them. We're really grasping for straws here if "the use of siege weapons" is an example of brilliance.


He OP said he used one tactic. I said siege weaponry because using it is a tactic, no matter how basic, not as a sign of his abilities but to show the OP wasn't being fair.

06/24/2012 12:39 AMPosted by Leary
You could argue that pride got the better of him, but that's, well... lame, unoriginal storywriting.


The demon lord of Sin, thus Pride, losing because of his ego may not be original but it fits.
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I mean, Azmodan kinda set himself up for a win with that gate and he did use tactics. He may've not used astounding ones (aside from, what I'll argue was a good tactic, baiting the stoen to Arreat with himself) but that doesn't negate the fact that he may be a good tactician. After all, he was fighting inferior enemies and was in no place to lose.


It was mentioned in an earlier post (and I'll repeat here) that Azmodan never intended to bait the hero into bringing the black soul stone to Bastion's Keep. Azmodan was attacking Bastion's Keep because it was mankind's greatest stronghold, and if it fell, the rest of humanity would follow. In Leah's vision, Azmodan is all like "I will find the stone wherever you choose to hide it;" he has no plans for anyone bringing the stone to him.

06/24/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Melyria
The demon lord of Sin, thus Pride, losing because of his ego may not be original but it fits.


It doesn't fit, actually. By that logic, he would've been blindly charging the keep himself out of wrath, or having lots of sex with everyone he came across out of lust, or whining about how Belial has a tighter physique and a great butt out of envy. Seriously, you can't just pick one vice and use that to justify bad story telling, especially if he's not irrationally acting on the other sins and having those compromise his plans too. And if his pride, lust, wrath, etc are so potent that they overpower his tactical, rational mind, then he's clearly not a master tactician, so Blizzard shouldn't have mentioned it. Either go with one or the other, but using both clearly doesn't work and annoys people because it's dumb.
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06/24/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Melyria
I understand people were expecting the best tactics ever, but to give him no credit isn't fair, nor is not considering that this is a video game and if too advanced tactics were used, it'd be either confusion OR would require a deus ex machina to just give us a fighting chance.


I think everyone is talking past each other. Azmodan could have used brilliant tactics, but what was portrayed in game did not demonstrate his tactical abilities in any way. If we are talking about the story, it simply did not do a proper job of building up Azmodan as a credible threat as a brilliant tactician. The lore in and of itself is a pretty decent and entertaining read, but if you look at Diablo 3 from the prism of in-game content, it is simply sub-grade even for gaming.

What could have been done is the fight against Azmodan lasted multiple acts, one was a feign to go after a strong military presence to feign he was trying to hunt down the black soul stone also. You could have stumbled onto Adria here and she leads you to desert to search for it with Azmodan following closely while his forced continued to search. Boss fights could have existed with his lieutenants in various locations, heck that could have worked to Resurrect Zoltan Kulle themselves, and he wipes some out after his Resurrection before you must kill him.

A lot could have been done within the constraints of a video game to better portray things. The story had a lot of potential in this game, but it seems to have been left at the potential stage.
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Posts: 224
invincible door technology
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If he's such a tactical genius, why is he basically explaining every of his moves and then going 'didn't need that anyways' when it fails?

Do you see Kasparov explaining his every chess move? Hellmuth in a WSOP final?


First, he's prideful.

But second, the way he was set up he couldn't lose. It took the intervention of an Archangel, something he couldn't have predicted, to stop him. The guy could gloat all he wanted because he was right, he didn't need any of his siege weapons or Ghom after he finished his job.

If Tyrael wasn't there, you'd have lost. It was a no-win situation. He would've won eventually, just by wearing down the defenses of the keep.


Actually one of the books from his messengers corpses has him stating "Do not let the Nephalem reach the gates or your lives will be forfeit." So he was worried about the Nephalem reaching the gate.
Edited by Reslin#1758 on 6/25/2012 11:25 AM PDT
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First, he's prideful.

But second, the way he was set up he couldn't lose. It took the intervention of an Archangel, something he couldn't have predicted, to stop him. The guy could gloat all he wanted because he was right, he didn't need any of his siege weapons or Ghom after he finished his job.

If Tyrael wasn't there, you'd have lost. It was a no-win situation. He would've won eventually, just by wearing down the defenses of the keep.


Actually one of the books from his messengers corpses has him stating "Do not let the Nephalem reach the gates or your lives will be forfeit." So he was worried about the Nephalem reaching the gate.

Agreed, pretty sure the gates being "invulnerable" was just an excuse to have Tyrael actually do something (Yet another gate the super-strong nephalem can't get through. Man, those padlocks)
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06/24/2012 05:18 PMPosted by TastyEelFish
If you played rock paper scissors with Azmodan, he'd simply yell out ROCK each and every time.


I just pictured this actually happening and almost peed my pants laughing


Funny, but I can't see it happening. Azmodan does have more than one tactic up his sleeve. His true problem with the game would be telling you how his rock will smash you, and then his scissor will cut you to shreds. He's a sore loser, too: "You cheated! Somehow you knew I would throw rock, then scissor."
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I just thought of a random theory.

Perhaps Azmodan is the greatest general in the war between the Heaven and Hell because:

Angels:
Alright, gather all of the angels here. That is the plan.

Azmodan:
Send 75% of our guys to there, and 25% to backstab them in a flank!.

Angels:
Damn the demons for their lack of honor! I never saw that coming!

Happened every week until Azmodan was declared the tactical genius, by the Angels who couldn't figure out how to CTRL group their army.
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I found it very interesting to look at some of the game art under the Media tab on this website.

Found some pretty amazing pictures of Bastion's Keep under attack, very similar to the LOTR assault on Gondor.

What happened to that storyline? That would have been pretty epic!
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06/14/2012 05:00 PMPosted by Melyria
only has 1 tactic.


He employed superior numbers.
.


Also known as zerg. Best tactician evar ;)
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I have a theory:
In diablo 2, when the hero beat the living crap out of everybody, he must have beaten them so hard that he lobotomized them. That is the only way you can explain how retarded all the prime and lesser evils act.
Edited by Prodigy#2400 on 6/26/2012 2:14 PM PDT
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Melyria 2 questions

1)how many hours/day do you troll story forums
2) what motivates you to be such a juggernaut fanboy that youd wolf-down this terrible plot, thank blizzard for it, and spend said hours/day defending this literary garbage

You're at six questions so far, since you've posted this exact thing in at least three threads. That's kinda annoying.
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